Rezzle... Propane Power?

[Deep]

Whats the deal with your propane burning 4AG?

[rezzle]

Originally posted by Deep
Whats the deal with your propane burning 4AG?

You mean why?

My 84 Celica was quite well 'used' - I have a heavy foot and Toyota's are one of two types of cars that I don't break, the other was a '76 Alfetta (that's another story.)

Looked in the paper and saw a modded AE92 for sale. I love the styling of the GTS. I bought it. I found out the hard way that the person who did the mods didn't do a sound job and after only a short time I broke a piston.

I rebuilt the engine, made new alternator mounts (you have to move it underneath to fit the MR2 SC on and the guy who did it before me flippin had it on crooked so the belts only lasted a month or two. Remounted the pump fer the intercooler ... etc etc. I was lucky however because the scoring was minimal and most of it came off with only a tiny bit of honing.

Not wanting to repeat and loving the acceleration I had before it broke. I decided to park it until I had a fix. I used to know the Owner of sdsefi.com and had seen what he had done with forced induction so I first I looked into programmable ECU's /w water injection and larger injectors. About $2200. I don't have an extra $2200.

What made me look to propane as an alternative. Two words ...

My dad.

The man is a retired maintenance supervisor of about 5 HD mechanics 2 LD mechanics 12 millwrights and countless electricians, is a mechanical genius. He had all the fleet vehicles (mostly 6 cylinder chev pickups) at his work converted about 20 years ago and all the engines lasted at least 1.5 to 2 times longer. He has also built several high powered V8's for his own use with 11.5: compression and all the other cool V8 stuff (list is too long and I am a lousy typer (two 454 chevs and a -- dodge 440 -- about 500 HP and 600 ft lbs of torque. fastest maxivan you ever saw lol )

He suggested I look into it.
I did.

This was my conclusion.

Gas price in Calgary .. usually at or above 65 cents / litre.
Propane can be found for 45 cents or less.

Price of ECU/Injectors ignition system, anti knock device, water injection with gas $2200 Canadian or more.
Price of Propane gas tank propane lines lock off converter and mixer $1000 dollars.

Note: I now have everything but the tank I got it for $150. that is right one hundred fifty. Used of course but who cares.

If the conversion is approved I may be eligible for a $400 grant.

Pump gas octane 92
Automotive Propane Octane rating 104

Evaporative Emissions from a gas engine well .. suck
The evaporative emissions from an LPG system are well .. none they are a closed system.

Operating emissions from a gasoline engine include sulfur, carbon monoxide, well the list goes on.
Operating emissions from propane, well gee 'almost' entirely CO2 and H2O extremely low levels of CO in comparison and some Nitrates. (this is why one can use propane on indoor vehicles like forklifts and not gasoline.

HP with supercharger and stock pistons on street gas before fatal detonation occurs --- I blew a piston proving this BTW ... 150-160
Estimated HP on propane with supercharger and stock pistons before fatal detonation occurs 190 although I may govern the car to 160ish to save the drive line.

Propane engines require less maintenance.

When filled to capacity Propane fuel tanks weigh less than a comparatively sized gasoline tank.

Propane fuel tanks are rated 54% safer than gasoline tanks by Liberty Mutual insurance company.

No one can 'siphon' my gas.

Soon, everyone will do as I am doing. Forced induction and propane are made for each other. NG is even better but the equipment is more expensive.

chant with me now ....

C2H8 IS GREAT C3H8 IS GREAT ...


Rezzle.

[Deep]

Rezzle, are there any links you can refer me to? How is fuel mileage compared to a gasoline motor? Do propane motivated vehicles behave differently than gasoline powered ones? What does the conversion involve?

Sorry for the tonne of questions, I know absolutely nothing about this topic.

[rezzle]

Oh god I hate to think of myself as the expert on this but here are some good starting points.


http://franzh.home.texas.net/engine.html#One You have to visit this site at the beginning of the month .. there is so much traffic he exceeds his isp allotment near months end.

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/resmgmt/pub...s/210510-2.pdf This page is old, nearly 20 years, so grab it before BC gov. realizes they have something useful posted and remove it.

http://www.wps.com/LPG/index.html#INDEX Best how to page on the web.

http://www.truckworld.com/4x4-OffRoa...rboWillys.html This page shows a vehicle rebuilt with propane in mind and displays its full potential for performance.

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EDIT:

http://www.impco.ws/pdf%20tech/GFPTraining-.pdf Impco propbably the largest manufacturer of automotive propane equipment has this training manual available. Read it and you will know as much as most anyone.


The only concerns I have is how the ECU will handle the fact that it really isn't in control of the fuel anymore. I am going to try and run it without any major changes to the existing setup, I am even leaving the injectors intact but I will be disconnecting the fuel pump and wires to the injectors and for a test drive I will just run off a small bottle. If everything seems ok I will then tackle installing a tank. All this will be in good time though prolly in about a month or so I work slow, only an hour or two a week.

[Deep]

Thanks for the info dude.

Are you running any type of managment? How do you plan on using the injectors without a signal?

It seems that most guys run carbs and there is an aftermarket controller used to read the 02 sensor signal which would help correct any lean/rich conditions.

[rezzle]

I am just leaving the injectors in to plug the manifold holes. (That and I am quite lazy and if it does me good by leaving them alone I am happy.

There is an aftermarket controller available, if you look into running what the propane folks call a closed loop control system. Closed loop just saves some fuel while cruising, highway etc and may be req'd components in places with high emmission controls IE California, simply to assist in the emmission of CO2. Currently I could care less hehe. I just wanna get the damn thing running. I would say 80% of the ones I have seen are open loop anyway, so are Webers, Holly's and pretty much every other gasoline carb known to man. Its not really an issue.

Propane is a 'carb' (I really don't like saying carburetor because there is no jets or venturi) type setup all of the fuel is controlled by vacuume. Read that Impco link to learn more. Its really simple because there is no need to try and 'vaporize' something that is already a gas. On most mixers there is one screw for idle and one screw for high end tuning and that's it! Because the mixers are already designed to give the right ratio there is no other adjustment. Fuel is fed to the mixer from a vacuume demand regulator, no vacuume - no fuel. They don't work exactly like your gas regulator on a heating unit but you can think of that as an example. Normal heating gas regulators feed on a pressure difference, and keep feeding, that could be unsafe.

The reason there is a performance hit with N/A engines is because the propane 'replaces' some of the air in the intake reducing volumetric efficiency. All that changes with F/I because you can add as much mixture as you need with boost. The real hassle is ducting and mounting the stuff because high performance small engine setups are extremely rare. Toyota forklifts only use a 125 mixer or smaller if you want decent HP you need a LEAST a 225. so that makes the Forklift aircleaners useless and there are no conversion ducts made to fit the SC. Fortunatley I have access to a whole array of tools and sheet metal equipment.

[Deep]

Ahh that makes much more sense. I read the stuff in the links but I was confused after looking at the diagram on the gov site, I assumed that the carb was responsible for metering fuel when its really vacuum. Seems simple really. I may try it one day if I get my hands on an oldskool ride for cheap or somthing. Still like to stay updated on how your project comes along though, and after having both a gas and LPG burning motor you'd have better insight.

[rezzle]

Heh no problem just be warned I am on the 'slow plan' like I said

For example ... this weekend I got the 'itch' right so Friday at work I think yup kinda warm half rainy perfect weekend to spend in the garage. Wife picks me up from work (only one car still) on the way to pick up our kid on the way home from work she suggests I should phone my dad and borrow his truck, (a rusted out toyota 4x4 22re).

Anyways I'm like "why?"

"I bought some bricks for the yard over the phone from home depot"

"What for?"

"The front garden didn't I tell you? we are going to edge it with blocks this weekend. I bought 110 of them"

"Oh"

Tadaa 12 hours on shovelling dirt out and back in the front garden and laying blocks between rain squalls and spending time with my son (3).

All I did was look at the car as I got the shovel out and put it back.

(Thank god we have a small house and yard it coulda been way worse).

[Deep]

Haha, no worries dude. Whenever you finish let us know.

[REN69]

Like Keanu would say... woah!!

[rezzle]

Here are some pics of the engine bay, where the intercooler sits when it is piped and the approximate size of the propane assembly. remember it was from a V8 heh.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289927895

[rezzle]

small pic of Propane assembly for those without imagestation

[rezzle]

The car its gonna fit into.

[rezzle]

The engine bay, ready for measurements.

[Deep]

Lookin good man