U know how on WAI intakes, theres a short tube? well, no matter what, that intake is going to be sucking in hot air. so why dont ppl put a cone filter right at the end of the throttle body instead? so u dont have to use that long tube. or does the tube serve the purpose of accelerating the air or something?? because with the filter right at the end of the t/b, wouldnt it be the most free flowing??
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shaun on 2002-04-09 17:39 ]</font>
Yes it would be the most free flowing, and this setup is used (or atleast shorter pipes) on turbo setups, Where they run the intake directly into the turbo with very short piping.
As for putting a cone directly onto the TB, it wouldn't work as good as having a tube connected to your TB. The tube is not only to extend the reach of intake, but to create vaccuum pressure required by the Naturally Aspirated engine.
On Forced Induced engines, The engine works opposite to that of a naturally aspirated engine, in which it Blows (forces) air into the combustion chamber when the intake valves open.
In a Naturally Aspirated engine, the engine "suck" of the piston going down and the atmospheric differences (in pressure) of the combustion chamber and the intake draws the air neccesary to go boom. When the intake valves open, air is sucked in.
Now, in regards to the Tube/cone idea. When you have just a cone, air is being sucked in but it will not be as strong as it could be. When we add a tube to create a vacuum (A space in which the pressure is significantly lower than atmospheric pressure). So when the valves open up again, and the engine wants air, the atmospheric differences between the chamber and the intake takes effect and air is sucked into the chamber due to the differences of high and low pressures (like the weather).
Get it?
If you just have a cone, you don't get a strong enough vacuum created, and therefore air is harder to be sucked in, because the differences aren't as great. And most cars won't operate without the sensor connected, nor with the engine not having enough air to breathe on.
Thats why, when naturally aspirated draggers run at different locations, they always have to check atmospheric pressure at the track, so they can compensate their engine to maximize on the difference.
When people use carbs(racers), they have to constantly adjust for optimization because they have no air flow sensor to compensate to the differences in pressure, unlike EFI's and all their sensors everywhere.
forgot to add this, if you see domestic dragracers whom are n/a, they get a hoodscoop, and turn it towards the windshield. They do this because air goes over the hood, hits the windshield and goes over the car right? But that reversed hoodscoop maximizes on the vacuum pressure created by the air flowing over the hole..
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: fatredcircle on 2002-04-09 19:44 ]</font>
wait wait wait if this was the case, why do they make individual throttle bodies for N/A applications and add small foam filters on top of the t/bs? if what you say is true, shouldnt this also reduce power?
ya i knew you were gonna bring that up.
i'm not sure exactly how the individual throttle body works. I'm sure theres a trick in the ecu to compensate for the differences.
i'm not sure.
but i know thats the issue for normal cars.
the reason why people use individual throttle bodies is because air and gas can be mixed faster, also, individual throttle bodies increase engine response, because the distance that the air travels decreases significantly where it is very important if you are racing in a track because the re-accleration after a turn depends on engine response as well as handling because a fine throttle can be adjusted easily with the use of your foot (and this of course depends on the driver as well).
Now as for the the cons of individual throttles (which often include a sport injection system) is similar to the carbs where the wheather have a significant affect on performance and has to be tuned very often, because air is not um....how should I say it, kinda like filter because one of the major component that would affect engine performance is moisture where you can't "filter" out from the direct mix of the air (that's why they are sometimes called "direct injection". Also since individual throttle body lacks the "air velocity" where a long tube intake system would have, it would lose low end torque. Also since it is an open structure, dust and other contaminants can go into the engine as well. Heat is another concern since the open structure mainly get hot air that is in the engine compartment.
In a conventional throttle body, where there is a large space in the intake manifold, that is to maintain smoothness of the engine, so is like, you won't feel a big difference in speed even if you go up and down the throttle because air is there for the engine to maintain it's rev, so if you let go of the throttle, you head won't be going forward abruptly. So, it is harder to drive with the individual throttles smoothly
Manufacturer have a way around it, for example the 20valve 4age and the new M3 (I think the old M3 has it too) is to add a box in between the individual throttles and the filter(kinda act like a resonator, again correct me if I'm wrong) to maintain the smoothness yet satify the engine response that it needs, also to maintin air velocity of intake air as well as filtration. Also it is easier to drive too
Of course there can't be the best of two worlds, there are up and downs for both application.
For the cone filter thingy, it depends of what you want, high end or low end, if you want low end, then go with the long intake system, if you want high end, you might want a short system. The reason is similar to what I have just said above
again that's just my 2cents, correct me if I'm wrong
On 2002-04-17 03:54, Tommi Tiardi wrote:
um........well, correct me if I'm wrong
the reason why people use individual throttle bodies is because air and gas can be mixed faster, also, individual throttle bodies increase engine response, because the distance that the air travels decreases significantly where it is very important if you are racing in a track because the re-accleration after a turn depends on engine response as well as handling because a fine throttle can be adjusted easily with the use of your foot (and this of course depends on the driver as well).
Now as for the the cons of individual throttles (which often include a sport injection system) is similar to the carbs where the wheather have a significant affect on performance and has to be tuned very often, because air is not um....how should I say it, kinda like filter because one of the major component that would affect engine performance is moisture where you can't "filter" out from the direct mix of the air (that's why they are sometimes called "direct injection". Also since individual throttle body lacks the "air velocity" where a long tube intake system would have, it would lose low end torque. Also since it is an open structure, dust and other contaminants can go into the engine as well. Heat is another concern since the open structure mainly get hot air that is in the engine compartment.
In a conventional throttle body, where there is a large space in the intake manifold, that is to maintain smoothness of the engine, so is like, you won't feel a big difference in speed even if you go up and down the throttle because air is there for the engine to maintain it's rev, so if you let go of the throttle, you head won't be going forward abruptly. So, it is harder to drive with the individual throttles smoothly
Manufacturer have a way around it, for example the 20valve 4age and the new M3 (I think the old M3 has it too) is to add a box in between the individual throttles and the filter(kinda act like a resonator, again correct me if I'm wrong) to maintain the smoothness yet satify the engine response that it needs, also to maintin air velocity of intake air as well as filtration. Also it is easier to drive too
Of course there can't be the best of two worlds, there are up and downs for both application.
For the cone filter thingy, it depends of what you want, high end or low end, if you want low end, then go with the long intake system, if you want high end, you might want a short system. The reason is similar to what I have just said above
again that's just my 2cents, correct me if I'm wrong
Individual throttles and carbs benefit engine response and power better than a single throttle is because there is an even airflow and even mixture (provided its tuned correctly) to EACH cylinder. As a reult, there is far more predictablity and for more flexibilty to generate power.
Correct, there is a lack of air velocity from the traditional single throttle. However, there is also harder and a stronger suction on individuals or carbs. this combined with the differnt velocity stacks can alter the power band of your car. So the individuals/carbs make up the lost velocity in other areas. The last i nkow of it, ivdiviual throttles ARE NOT affected by atmospeheric change as many if not all individual throttle setups use a MAP sensor or standalone system.
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. Also since individual throttle body lacks the "air velocity" where a long tube intake system would have, it would lose low end torque. Also since it is an open structure, dust and other contaminants can go into the engine as well. Heat is another concern since the open structure mainly get hot air that is in the engine compartment. 
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