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View Poll Results: which would you chose and what name
turbocharged 3 42.86%
supercharged 4 57.14%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-25-2004, 10:42 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Question turbo vs super

if money was no option ....would you go supercharger (i think is only available for the 5sfe) or would you go turbo charged and what is your reason based on

-available
-install
-how long the motor would last
-driveability
-horsepower

the reason i ask is because im gonna start looking for a motor to rebuild or buy...and im wondering what block im gonna use...
5sfe with stroker kit? new crank pistons cam BOLTS and a supercharger?
3s gte turbo

not sure ...mabye something like wraith wrote out on the other post...

i hear the 5sfe heads are crap...but im not sure if i change the head to the 3s gte head on the 5sfe block would the supercharger still fit or would i need a turbo again?...lookin into that now. im new to this so im looking for my best option for a strong motor but reliable at the same time...

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Old 05-25-2004, 11:21 AM   #2 (permalink)
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if money were no object....u would be doing exactly what tony the tiger is doing........
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Old 05-25-2004, 12:59 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: turbo vs super

Quote:
Originally posted by FALCON2691
if money was no option ....would you go supercharger (i think is only available for the 5sfe) or would you go turbo charged and what is your reason based on

-available
-install
-how long the motor would last
-driveability
-horsepower

the reason i ask is because im gonna start looking for a motor to rebuild or buy...and im wondering what block im gonna use...
5sfe with stroker kit? new crank pistons cam BOLTS and a supercharger?
3s gte turbo

not sure ...mabye something like wraith wrote out on the other post...

i hear the 5sfe heads are crap...but im not sure if i change the head to the 3s gte head on the 5sfe block would the supercharger still fit or would i need a turbo again?...lookin into that now. im new to this so im looking for my best option for a strong motor but reliable at the same time...
you can use a supercharger instead of a turbo on a 5s-gte it would be called a 5s-gze
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Old 05-25-2004, 01:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
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You can get a TRD s/c for a 1mz-fe and go to howstuffworks.com and learn how each works...They're different things, its kind of uncomparable.

Edit : I know i kinda edited it a bit late but i think when i first typed this post i didn't read it and i thought the question was which is better, Turbo or s/c.

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Old 05-25-2004, 05:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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If money isn't an issue, why not got twincharged and get the best of both worlds?

Seriously though, what sort of driving characteristic are you hoping to achieve? How knowledgable are you about engines? Do you have access to a reputable shop?
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Old 05-25-2004, 06:20 PM   #6 (permalink)
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here's the break down...

super charegers need to use up 30 of yor hp to give you 100 hp

turbo's use 3 hp to give you 100 hp

these #'s are a little fluid depending on setup..

s/c does NOT HAVE TO have an intercooler (but should)

turbo DOES HAVE TO have an intercooler (no arguements)

S/C
runs pressureised from idle to redline,
gives better gas mileage, is easier on the cranck rings wristpins
and bearings....Also it will extend the life of yor engine if you dont use the gas pedal to prove you have a bloww off valve

Turbo
gives more hp for the same money...(hp fer cheep)
provides a more vertical power curve on a dyno..aka..better for drag racing.

probs with turbo...
hard to tune...hard to map....hard to optimise without research up the ying yang...
better have a VERY good intercooler before you add nitro!!!

These probs are not so common with well developed kits that have had lots of people doing them...some honda boards have people swapping their progs with eachother just to get 5 more hp from an aftermarket proven kit!!


probs with S/C
noisy if you use the shell type(centrifugal)...bearings that wear faster than turbo...belts that wear...costs more per hp..
less common hard to find not often well developed.....

these are generalisations of S/C prbs....any adders???
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Old 05-25-2004, 06:39 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by kazzXtrismus
here's the break down...

turbo's use 3 hp to give you 100 hp
No turbo dont take any hp ... it uses wasted gass soo how can it take away your horsepower...

Quote:
Originally posted by kazzXtrismus

S/C
runs pressureised from idle to redline,
gives better gas mileage, is easier on the cranck rings wristpins
and bearings....Also it will extend the life of yor engine if you dont use the gas pedal to prove you have a bloww off valve
not all true... It doesnt extend life no matter what if your making more horsepower your lowering the life expectancy of your motor. Because of the stress of making the extra horsepower.

Quote:
Originally posted by kazzXtrismus

Turbo
gives more hp for the same money...(hp fer cheep)
provides a more vertical power curve on a dyno..aka..better for drag racing.
Not very true either... if you have a large displacement motor and run it with 2 small T25 turbos ... you power band from spool up would be quite board... And it wouldnt spike , unless you run a big single... Look up how Supra make their power...

Quote:
Originally posted by kazzXtrismus

probs with S/C
noisy if you use the shell type(centrifugal)...
No it doesnt matter if you use a centrifugal or a roots type they all make noise even a Turbo... After a certain rpm the turbo will blurr out your motors droning... The supercharger with the right pulley can even make noise louder than a turbo... I've drive both and have worked on both... I've drive a Jackson Racing S/c'ed Integra with only 5psi of boost and it was a automatic. It make a nice supercharger whine right below VTEC. As for the Turbo, my camry would hit 4000rpm and the motor sounds would be over powered by the spooling noise of my turbo... Soo they all make noise and each has its own exhaust tone...
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Old 05-26-2004, 01:27 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by kazzXtrismus
Turbo
gives more hp for the same money...(hp fer cheep)
provides a more vertical power curve on a dyno..aka..better for drag racing.
Actually, superchargers are better for drag racing. They give instant boost and can post some huge numbers with the right engine build. Which is why drag racers (muscle cars) mostly use superchargers.


EDIT: If money isn't a problem, buy a better car
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Old 05-26-2004, 08:01 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SmokingTiresV6
Actually, superchargers are better for drag racing. They give instant boost and can post some huge numbers with the right engine build. Which is why drag racers (muscle cars) mostly use superchargers.


EDIT: If money isn't a problem, buy a better car
actually no... The reason why top fuel dragsters dont use turbos is because it was BANNED by NHRA because cars was peggin a 10,000 horsepower dynos with the turbo setups...
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Old 05-26-2004, 08:46 AM   #10 (permalink)
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the reason i say "if money was no option" is because im looking for information...for sure money is always an option, but i would like to know the opinions without that factor in it. most likely im looking at a 3-4 year project....and i would like to do something real good. I am new to the injection and higher tech ideas...but i ve got about a year to figure out what motor to do what with... however thanks to everyone who posted...everyone put out some very usefull information. thanks kazzXtrismus that really gives me something to look into
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Old 05-26-2004, 10:51 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wraith
actually no... The reason why top fuel dragsters dont use turbos is because it was BANNED by NHRA because cars was peggin a 10,000 horsepower dynos with the turbo setups...
Oh, I have always found blowers to put out a good amount of hp. And I love the instant boost.

And I've seen the power of turbos Diesels are where it's at. 8L V8 diesel running 4 turbos. Right around 400 lbs of boost. Now that's power.
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Old 05-29-2004, 09:23 PM   #12 (permalink)
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S/C for the street. Turbo for the track.
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Old 05-30-2004, 01:14 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by kazzXtrismus
here's the break down...

super charegers need to use up 30 of yor hp to give you 100 hp

turbo's use 3 hp to give you 100 hp

these #'s are a little fluid depending on setup..
Very fluid numbers...
Both types of forced inductions use varying amounts of power to generate boost depending on conditions. Generally, superchargers use more power, true, but turbo's are far from free. Turbines require power to turn, that gas pressure required to drive the compressor takes energy to push out of the engine. Exhaust pressure before the turbine can easily be 30 psi at full tilt boogie. That does not leave the cylinder easily. That is but one reason turbo's like different exhaust cam timing than n/a or supercharged.

[QUOTE/]s/c does NOT HAVE TO have an intercooler (but should)

turbo DOES HAVE TO have an intercooler (no arguements)
[/QUOTE]

Many of the early turbo cars were not intercooled. It depends on the amount of boost. Actually, since turbos are far more efficient compressors than the standard roots type supercharger, it is better argued that a s/c needs an aftercooler more than a turbo. Of course, a screw compressor is much more efficient, close to a turbo. Either way, cooler is better no matter how you slice it. Lower intake temps=more power, lower combustion temps, lower exhaust temps, less detonation problems, and longer engine life.


[QUOTE/]
S/C
runs pressureised from idle to redline,
gives better gas mileage, is easier on the cranck rings wristpins
and bearings....Also it will extend the life of yor engine if you dont use the gas pedal to prove you have a bloww off valve
[/QUOTE]

Typo here? Superchargers such as a roots or screw are called positive displacement blowers. That means they pump out the same amount of air with each revolution. They will produce linear boost with rpm from idle to redline. Centrifugal compressors are about the same as a turbo in that the boost is low to none at low rpm and builds in a curve with rise in rpm's. Any blower that is belt driven will add strain and wear to the crank and bearings. Turbo's avoid this. Rings, pistons and wristpins are subject to damage largely by poor tuning or excessive heat, not the type of forced induction.
Turbo's will give better mileage because at part throttle cruise, they are hardly spinning as there is not a whole lot of exhaust. A supercharger will spin with the engine at the same rpm whether there is an open throttle or not.

[QUOTE/]
Turbo
gives more hp for the same money...(hp fer cheep)
provides a more vertical power curve on a dyno..aka..better for drag racing.
[/QUOTE]

That depends on the power you want, and the amount of boost. In many cases, you can just bolt on a supercharger if you only run a few pounds of boost on newer cars and you're done. A turbo requires a whole new exhaust system, much different intake plumbing, oil plumbing, etc.
The dyno charts on superchargers is much more linear from idle. A turbo tends to be pretty flat down low, then rockets up. Where it rockets up depends on a variety of factors such as turbine size, exhaust size, manifold type and size, and so on.

[QUOTE/]
probs with turbo...
hard to tune...hard to map....hard to optimise without research up the ying yang...
better have a VERY good intercooler before you add nitro!!!

These probs are not so common with well developed kits that have had lots of people doing them...some honda boards have people swapping their progs with eachother just to get 5 more hp from an aftermarket proven kit!!


probs with S/C
noisy if you use the shell type(centrifugal)...bearings that wear faster than turbo...belts that wear...costs more per hp..
less common hard to find not often well developed.....

these are generalisations of S/C prbs....any adders???
[/QUOTE]

Actually, any forced induction is hard to tune well. Even factory supercharger kits can be lacking in power due to overly "safe" ecu programming. Again, it depends on the amount of boost you want to run. Since turbos are better suited to really high boost, they can be harder in that sense.

Here's my opinion. Run whatever you want. Both types have been successfully used just about anywhere.
Both can be sized to do what you want in the rpm you want it.
Typically, a turbo or centrifugal supercharger is easier to plumb for an aftercooler, but I've seen Roots and Screws with coolers as well, so nothing is impossible.

Availability- I don't know, some engines have supercharger kits, others have turbo kits.

Install-typically, a supercharger is MUCH easier to install.

Longevity-depends on amount of boost, aftercooling, tuning, driving style more than type of air stuffer

Driveability-generally, a supercharger is just like a bigger engine so driveability is not really affected. If a turbo is well sized, it can be pretty seamless too. If you run a huge turbo set up for top end crazy hp, then it's gonna be a dog till it spools then push your eyeballs to the back of your skull.

Horsepower- depends on a lot of factors. A turbo or centrifugal compressor can run higher boost with less heat, so for all out hp, they are hard to beat.

Look here for more info
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question122.htm

Follow some of the links there to dig up more...
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Old 05-31-2004, 03:20 AM   #14 (permalink)
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If money isn't a problem, my car would be a rear-engine and RWD Camry, running a body that has been designed with air tunnels, and car completely constructed out of carbon fiber and plasma-welded connections. Oh wait, that type of bodywork sounds like what a jet fighter plane utilizes

Questions like this is not realistic, so I don't think about it much.

I think somehow my Camry build-up is making everyone think that I am all bling My Camry does take money to build, but it's an amount that almost everyone of you can afford. I only work with what I have available, and my Camry is what I have ended up with based on my current know-how and budget It's a good amount of money, but money I rather spend on my current car instead of purchasing a newer car like most people. So far, I have spent about $14000-$15000 CAD on my Camry, but this money couldn't even buy me a new Corolla or something remotely decent. So instead of buying a newer car to replace my 10-year-old Camry, I went all-out with my Camry Knowledge is power, and once you get connections with parts suppliers, fabrication shops, as well as being mechanically inclined, etc... there is really no stopping you. I have came a long way before I built my Camry, so it's not really a first-timer type of work to be building a car and an engine that has no aftermarket support whatsoever.

If you think about it, I had to be familiar with the following things before I even decided to tackled my Camry project:

- understanding of the motor -- something like an ASE test would be sufficient
- turbo systems and turbo tech (specs -- A/R, trim, workings, etc..)
- machine work -- measuring for custom valves, pistons, etc..
- Mechanical skills -- engine overhaul, etc...
- Plumbing -- fittings, fluid connections
- Fuel System -- custom fuel system, etc...
- Electrical -- management systems, wiring, sensors, understanding them
- Tuning -- no one can tune your car 24/7 Do it yourself or go home
- Welding -- pipes, custom brackets, etc...
- CNC Machining (shop connections)
- hookups with shops for wholesale prices and deals
- etc...


Oh, to answer the question, I would rather have a supercharger than a turbo. Although S/C's are very inefficient, you can always make more power to compensate for the loss. If I were to race a turbocharged car with the same HP/TQ as my S/C car, the supercharged car would have more chance to win. Although it will take A LOT more money and effort to make the S/C create the same amount of power as a turbocharger, but powerband vs powerband, the S/C will get the upper-hand.

My opinion to why S/C is better:

S/C -- only positive displacement-- no centrifugal "turbo on a stick" crap:
- no lag -- instant power

- if intercooled, potential is unlimited just like turbos

- less engine recovery time -- air and boost into the engine is very consistent. Less chance for misfires or bogging. Less strain on the ignition and fueling system.

- better traction -- if rubber and suspension can hold the power, the S/C will always have better traction due to smoother power delivery


Turbos (negative points):
- lag -- no matter how small the turbo is, exhaust gas is the byproduct of combustion and engine RPM. Engine RPM is constantly there but exhaust gas is based on engine load.

- exhaust gas back pressure against the motor. In order for a turbo to work, there must be pressure between the engine and the turbo. This pressure also diverts exhaust gases back into the combustion chamber. S/C's on the other hand can still use free flowing exhausts and headers to maximize combustion efficiency.

- power transition is bad for traction and driveline components. When reaching higher power levels, a turbocharged car will begin to have a narrower powerband. Thus, the "on/off" power transition on most high powered turbo race cars.



I couldn't sleep tonight, so I actually typed up this huge post
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Last edited by Tony the Tiger; 05-31-2004 at 03:26 AM.
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Old 05-31-2004, 09:24 AM   #15 (permalink)
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well i just like to thank everyone again, tony and altrack...for the great posts...things like this are good to give me an opinion ...because i need one. I will continue with my celica even though i know that there might be better cars for the set-up...a car is like a dog...you just grow to love it.. and if i just left it and bought a new one...then it wouldnt be my car. my car will be tunned by me it will be built by me...and will be driven to the limits....by me. and as i said before...money is always a problem, but i can find the prices after i know the technical side.
I ask these crazy questions so that i can get an opinion, im looking for a general set up right now (super charged, turbo, nitro) and then after i will investigate the more detail like exaust heads...stand alone...but i have to figure out where to start...and i think ive made a decision...im gonna try the supercharger. not for sure...have a few more specific questions...but this tred was really helpful i like the idea of a smother power band and im always afraid of blowing up on the turbo.
Quality information is hard to find...right or wrong, because an opinion with a reason...even if its wrong i can investigate further and maybe someone had a reason for being misinformed

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