I was wondering if anyone could explain to me the benefits of a staggered rim setup. Other than just more traction for the drive wheels. Is it just because wider rims fit better in the rear and a matching front wheel won't fit?
__________________
-Eric
1991 SV21 DX - The slow
1990 FC3S GXL - The go
I'm a bit curious too now that you ask... My guess is the same as yours. The larger wheels are in the rear to give the drive wheels more traction. My guess is that it would be most useful during heavy accleration when weight shifts towards the rear.
I would imagine that some cars are designed to have a staggered setup, ie Lotus Elise, from the ground up. Maybe on the front the larger tires are not neccessary and smaller ones are used to reduce cost and/or weight. Also most cars are front engine, so using wider tires up front would mean either making the car wider, or making the engine bay narrower, both of which can be undesireable. In the rear is usally the trunk and making the space between the wheel wells here narrower, narrowing the inside, may not be as crucial.
Maybe on the front the larger tires are not neccessary and smaller ones are used to reduce cost and/or weight.
EXACTLY
With the lotus and my TRD mr2, most of the mass is in the back of the car. I don’t see much benefit from larger tires up front on my car since there is hardly any weight up there. The other reason most people run a staggered setup is clearance. Since the rear wheels stay in exactly the same place and don’t pivot they don’t tend to interfere with suspension components. The other points you were getting at are also excellent reasons to go with the smaller front wheels.
As far as drivability is concerned, I think some manufacturers use the staggered setup to help inexperienced drivers. From what I have learned with all the different setups I have run, staggered wheels tend to oversteer less. So, in some cases it may be for liability reasons.
__________________ MR2 V6 with an inordinate ammount of boost www.V6MR2.com
more stablity/traction(can fit wider section tyres)
they will also maintain traction for longer (more rubber, takes longer to heat up/deteriorate)
__________________
125 front wheel horsepower with major retard issues between 4500-5200RPM -
OD switched off, even when not in 3rd results in major power loss/rpm drop.
On a RWD car, larger tires in back can help with traction, but i did think about staggering my echo when I was getting new tires. Echos understeer horribly, so I was gonna go 205 in the fron and 195 in the rear to try to get rid of some understeer.
In the end, I decided to just get a matched set so that I could rotate the tires...but the idea still kind of intrigues me.
Anyone wanna put some wider tires in front and let me know how it handles?
On a RWD car, larger tires in back can help with traction, but i did think about staggering my echo when I was getting new tires. Echos understeer horribly, so I was gonna go 205 in the fron and 195 in the rear to try to get rid of some understeer.
In the end, I decided to just get a matched set so that I could rotate the tires...but the idea still kind of intrigues me.
Anyone wanna put some wider tires in front and let me know how it handles?
Be cairfull dude, Echos tend to go belly up when you put grippy tires on them and try to turn
J/K but it would be interesting to see if the 205's up front fix the problem,
__________________ MR2 V6 with an inordinate ammount of boost www.V6MR2.com
Last edited by QuadCamSix; 08-23-2005 at 07:55 PM.
would there be any advantage to going with a staggered setup on a car with 50/50 weight distribution?
When accelerating, the weight shift is to the rear, so I would think so...
For a FF car, 50/50 weight distribution is not likely, the weight of the engine over the front axle is needed to help those wheels with traction which is generally the reason, they have 60/40 weight distribution.
When accelerating, the weight shift is to the rear, so I would think so...
For a FF car, 50/50 weight distribution is not likely, the weight of the engine over the front axle is needed to help those wheels with traction which is generally the reason, they have 60/40 weight distribution.
50/50 distribution would be good for handling while in motion, but from an acceleration standpoint, you're right that it's kinda crappy for a FF car, but on ANY FF car, acceleration is tricky. You get a lot of wheel spin esp if you're powering out of a corner.
There are a few things to consider when selecting tire size. The first and most important is what will fit? You want to stuff as much tire in hole as possible. Going with an offset tire size can change the way the car handles. If your car understeers (you turn the wheel and keep going) more tire in the front or less in back will shift that tward neutral. If you have an oversteer problem (the rear end steps out) then more in the back or less in front will change that. Front tire size has one other effect. You have to match your rim backspacing to minimize scrub radius. This is found by drawing a line through the ball joints on the steering knuckle to the ground. This is called king pin inclination angle. Then you draw a line through the center of the tire to the ground (this is all done as seen from the front). The distance between the lines where they meet the ground is the scrub radius. Scrub radius has an impact on steering effort. Ideal is 0. Keep this in mind when selecting rim backspacing. A good shop should be able to recomend a rim size. Also keep in mind that bigger wheels are not better wheels. A larger diamater rim will change your effective gear ratio. Too much rim will kill acceleration. Bigger wheels also increase rotational mass. Too much weight will kill both acceleration and braking, so keep it light. Another thing to consider is profile. Lower profile tires will have better roll resistance meaning the tire won't roll onto its under cornering load. Be careful here too. Less sidewall height also means that the car is more sensitive to small bumps in the road, as well as suspension setup.
I always thought a slightly positive scrub radius was a good thing. It provides the driver with feedback as to what the car is doing. I was planning on going with 17" rims up from 15" and 9" wide in the rear and 8" wide in the front. The rims are lighter than the stock rims and the overall radius of wheel and tire will be unchanged so the speedo and gear ratios will remain unchanged. Would there be any benefit to the 9" wide rims in the back instead of just putting 8" wide rims in the back as well?
__________________
-Eric
1991 SV21 DX - The slow
1990 FC3S GXL - The go
Not unless you have trouble with the rear end stepping out. The rim stagger will make things expensive in the tire department. you won't be able to rotate them for better tire ware.
a staggared setup usually is designed for RWD cars. the purpose of this is it maximizes traction during acceleration. at complete stop, the car has a weight distibution of what ever the manufacuter states, in this example im gonna use the ae86. 50/50 weight distribution in a stationary position. during acceleration, the weight shifts from a 50/50 to the rear of the car. the percent weight shifted is depenant on the force in which you accelerate. now, since the majority of the weight is placed on the rear end, the traction between the tires in the front and back are different. there is a higher load of weight put on the rear of the tire due to the shift of the weight. so to counter the increased load, a larger contact patch is needed in the rear so with the added weight can maintain its traction during a launch.
for the ae86, the stock tires are a 195/60/14 for stock, which in my opinion is adequate for the car of this total weight to power output ratio on a straight line. lets say you increased the engine torque output, now during a launch a majority of the weight will be shifted to the rear. during this shift, the tires cannot maintain an adaquate amount of traction due to the increased out put at the axles. so an increased contact patch or better rubber is needed to maintan that grip needed for a launch. again, the ae86 does not need a staggared setup due to the overall light weight of the car, maybe wider tires front and back for upgraded engines. other cars such as the SUPRA would need a stag setup.
the supra can have a VERY high engine output, and needs a tremendous amount of grip during a ALL OUT launch. that is why you see some crazy numbers such as 295/30/19 sizes in the rear of some super cars. but why a smaller tire in the front you ask? simple, the front tires are used for turning the car, wider tires interfre with the body and suspension components during a turning, thus comprimising its turning radius. dont get me wrong, wider tires in the front are nessecary. if you can out put power to accel you to a crazy top speed, then you need power to stop you! during your braking, weight is shifted to the front now, and your tires are the only things keeping you stuck on the ground.
heres the tough part, ideally you want super wide tires in the back and super wide in the front without comprimising your turning radius. correct? now lets talk about frictional drag. the more rubber on the ground means more grip, that also means that grip is robbing you of top end power due to the drag your wide setup. that is why tire compound and sizing plays a very major part of alot of gokart racing. since the car is soo light, it will respond more to tire setup more so than a heavier car. ae86 vs a supra.
if you put 295 wide tires on a ae86, the tires would have robbed all possible torque the car had. your launch would be nothing and you will reach 100km/h in 5mins.
wider tires are good for the launch of the car, and the stopping of the car. in top gear, you want as skinny as possible to reduce drag while maintaining your tire RPM with out slipping.
this is why tires are multi million dollar corporation. the design and engineering involved in tire creationg is amazing. esp in race situations. F1 and most competitive races rely almost completely on how the tires are designed to maximize their engine outputs while sustaining the minimum drag coefficent. tire choices make or break champions.
*the reason for the balanced setup on the ae86 is that its a great cornering car, and changing that characteristic with a stag tire setup will give too much understear. if you own a ae86, stick with a balanced tire setup. i personally would not go beyond 205 wide tires. you need more grip get R compounds. unless your racing competitivly then you should be smart enuf to know what to put on.
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