Getting a used 1988 Vs All Trac Wagon-Crazy?

[levelbest]

Hi, I am offered a $200USD V6 fixer upper Camery wagon. I am living inexpensively and I really need some good reliable transportation. This car may fill the bill. Before I bite, no matter how low the entry price, I need to check out a few of the already know problems and get some ideas about what I am looking at from others that already are familiar with the car. I also own a 94 T100 and I love it. But that truck is back on the mainland and I am now living for a while in Hawaii.

This is a Camery Wagon. Automatic, nice interior, not beat up looking inside or out. Here in Hawaii there are lots of rust buckets and this one isn't too bad in that department. I assume it is a lux version as the interior is nice, V6, electric windows, etc. It also has 4wd (all trac). The motor has roughly 180K - 190K, I didn't remember exactly. I looked at it and drove it today. Felt tight, engine was strong. OK, that is the good news. That, and the fact that it is a Toyota, tells me throwing money at it isn't going down a well. That is, in some cars unless you really love them, at a certain point you are throwing good money after bad engineering.

I don't know this year or make or model so maybe I can get some feedback on how worthwhile this unit would be once it is 100%? I hope so.

The asking price, $200 USD.

Known Problem #1
OK, this car is automatic, And it won't go in reverse anymore. That is the big thing. Apparently, the guy parks it on even a slight hill and once it starts rolling backwards, it does put it’s self in reverse a little. It seems to have an automatic tranny version of a very slipped clutch in reverse.

Can anyone say anything about what I may be looking at in replacement of fixes for this? Is this a familiar problem on this model car? I will say that as I drove it, the shift mechanism felt so loose I was thinking it might fall off in my hand. I have never felt an automatic shift handle that loose before. Maybe it is in some way, out of adjustment and I can fix it easily? Or not.

Known Problem #2
It has a loud muffler. No brainer there, go find a mineke, midas of other muffler shop.

Known Problem #3
Hood seems to escape it’s auto latch. I assume this is because it has been sitting for quite a while. Probably some well placed WD40 will fix this. Although, is the hood latch a known issue in this model car?

Known Problem #4
He says it has random staring issues. He recommends investing in a battery booster for those times when it just wont turn over. I went through something similar with my 94 T100 truck last year. It turned out to be a starter replacement that fixed everything. Any tips on trouble shooting a random no start issue on this model Toyota?

There may be other issues but the man selling it is a friend and I don't think there is anything he is not saying about the car. Basically it has good paint, body interior and the major components seem Strong - except for the tranny. And for my own reasons, I am happy to have cheap, but safe comfortable and fairly reliable transportation down here. My truck is back on the mainland.

Can anyone answer any of these questions? Can anyone offer an opinion about if this particular year had any really problems to look out for? I believe this is called a generation two model And I believe this is the first year this car was made in America. Is that a problem in this year model? Still, Camerys have always had a stellar reputation for quality with the auto press and with consumers. Am I missing anything about this car? At $200, does it sound like a reasonable fixer upper car? I am thinking, heck yes.

I would appreciate any comments, links, tips, feedback or what ever.

Thanks.

[nuron]

Have a mechanic look at the transmission before you buy it. As for the random starting, I suggest buying a multimeter, like I just did, and a Haynes or something manual too. You can then check the range a component is supposed to be in and if it's out, replace it. This way, you won't replace unecesary parts. That All-Trac might be hard to work on though, as I'm just thinking the 4WD will have more stuff to worry about. Gen 2 Camrys do have a good reputation but you have to realize that these cars are 19 years old. Like I mentioned before, have a reputable mechanic look it over. Do you have any pictures of the car? Best of luck .

[Kingdom934]

Whoa, V6 w/ All-trac?

I'm not sure if the V6 came with the option of All-Trac since this has to be the first I heard, I did know that they were All-trac models with I4 though. For all I know, if that is an V6 w/ All-trac, that is as rare as rare gets. Since I'm not an expert with Gen2 models and Alltracs, try see what the forums members might say as they they might know more about the Gen2's.

Since this is an All-Trac, then the transmission might be slightly more complex to fix VS the FWD models I believe.



You can check to see if this is made in america or in Japan. Check the VIN number. If it starts off with 'J', then it came from Japan. I believe that the Alltrac models and the V6 models came only from Japan for Gen2.

[HomeGrown]

I also thought I heard that the all trac was not available with the V6....

Sounds like (obviously) the tranny is the largest issue here. Overall though, $200 sounds like a giveaway price for it. These cars are generally very reliable, and you should be able to find out anything you need to here. Your hood latch issue is not really a known problem, but not uncommon for any older car. Definately a WD-40 fix.

Did the tranny seem to shift alright through the forward gears?

[levelbest]

I will definitely get pictures, especially if this turns out to be my car. I believe in TLC for a car and that means, clean it first, and keep it clean. I know it sounds odd but a clean car seems to break down less, and run better, than a dirty car. Weird but IMHO, true.

Take to a mechanic first is very good advice, thanks. There is one around the corner recommended by locals and I will stop and ask there.

Yes, it has the 4WD. I would also think this could be a complicated or expensive problem to unravel. Believe it or not, the guy has started loaning it out and has driven it and now is happy to pass it on to me but, he is OK driving it without reverse. You just have to plan ahead ... OK ... I think I would like to NOT have to plan ahead.

I was hoping that this list might harbor some Toyota enthusiasts and perhaps some mechanics who can tell me more about this system on this car? I have been googleing since last night and I have a Chiltons manual that includes that year. But I don't know enough yet to know where to start looking for questions, let alone answers. IOW, if I looked to make this a manual transmission car, as I found on post on the net about doing, does the special all trac setup leave non compliant special axles and differentials to contend with? Overall, is there any realistic option short of replacing the whole tranny with stock? Is there any way I could fix the current tranny with a book, some tools, and some luck? Are there linkages (I mentioned the shift lever is super loose) that I could look at first? I like the axiom of going for the simple fix first - if there is one.

For various reasons, I am down in Hawaii and wanting to sit quietly and write and publish my photos, and a car that runs, is reliable, is safe and I have a modicum in pleasure in driving, is really fine with me. I haven't decided on moving here and my truck continues to sit at a friends house in Denver. Shipping vehicles here is not cheap - but certainly cheaper than buying that truck again here.

I guess the real question is, how can I really get to know this transmission and this car? I am looking for others that know it pretty well. Maybe reverse can be dealt with. Or maybe this is s sure sign that the rest of it is going south very soon? The thing is, in driving it, it feels really strong in the forward gears. My gut tells me that if revers is blown out but the rest of the tranny is working fine, then the tranny may be salvageable. I have no idea what is inside the tranny and this chiltons book does a poor job with illustrations. I am guessing there is a valve in there that is stuck or blown out at the worst case. Or an off hooked linkage that is easy to repair at best. Or a fancy all trac on on switch that shorted ... I don't know.

And, a curious aside, what is this all trac all about anyway? 4wd here isn't the same as 4wd in the T100. Is this a permanent 4wd? Is this a great feature for sure driving on slippery or snow conditions? Is this relatively early version a well developed piece of this technology? Is it adding a sporty feel to the traction? And, it I somehow disabled it, would my mileage improve? Is the auto tranny and the all trac going to give me much worse mileage than a standard tranny and 2WD? Just curious, trying to get to know this concept on this car.

ADDED: How can I tell for sure if it really is all trac? The guy said so and he seems to not be putting me on (he’s a friend). But, disbelief has been expressed here so, how to I check this feature to see if it really is there for sure? There is a button on the auto shift handle for OD I believe, bit I didn't take a thorough look at the dash lights to see what it had.

How can I tell the year? I was reading that in 89 the automatic DID have all trac (and ABS) as an option. I think the year should be in the door jam somewhere if it is like my truck. Is it an 88, an 89?

much thanks.

[white90dx]

Originally Posted by levelbest

ADDED: How can I tell for sure if it really is all trac? The guy said so and he seems to not be putting me on (he’s a friend). But, disbelief has been expressed here so, how to I check this feature to see if it really is there for sure? There is a button on the auto shift handle for OD I believe, bit I didn't take a thorough look at the dash lights to see what it had.

How can I tell the year? I was reading that in 89 the automatic DID have all trac (and ABS) as an option. I think the year should be in the door jam somewhere if it is like my truck. Is it an 88, an 89?

much thanks.

The V6 with AWD was not available in the US, and especially not with the wagon, sorry. The owners manual says "Camry, Camry All-trac" on the front, which confuses many people.

Check underneath the rear of the car - if there is a differential and drive axles, you have yourself an ultra-rare car. Also, check under the hood to make sure its a 6-cylinder.

Either way though - if you are getting a mostly-running car for $200, you should probably go for it!

-Charlie

[HomeGrown]

Yep, I was pretty excited when I first looked at my car at the dealer and saw the owner's manual that said Camry, Camry All-Trac. But then I found out that's just a common manual.

Anyway, like Charlie said, look for the rear differential. In addition, look for the badging on the rear hatch, and look for some sort of switch on the dash. I was coming home from work yesterday and saw an All-Trac wagon and it had a different front end. The grille looked different than our typical Gen 2 grilles.

Even if it isn't an All-Trac, it still sounds like an exellent deal. And if it really IS an All-Trac, there will be many envious people here (including myself)

I haven't heard anything about the All-Trac system being problematic, and yes, it does take a slight hit on MPG's, but not bad. There are a few REALLY sharp people here, who may have a clue as to what the problem may be. Maybe PM Timebuilder and/or DoctorJ to ask them to respond to this thread. Haven't seen either of them on here in a couple of weeks. Hopefully they will have a clue as to what's going on with the tranny.
BTW: if you go to the general Camry section, you will find downloadable manuals, a complete set for the Gen 2 Camry including one specifically for the tranny. It is probably more detailed than the typical Chilton's manual.

FWIW, I totally agree with you about keeping a car clean. If it's clean, it makes me feel like taking better care of it. I hope you get this car, it sounds like a very worthwhile vehicle. My '90 wagon has 364k on the clock, and still runs & drives decent.

[Tommy]

Excelent deal? are you guys nuts?

The transmission has about a week left on it....even if you replace it yourself with a used one, your looking at a $500 job, plus you need a new muffler, at least $200 there, new starter, $120, and who knows what else.... Timing belts, cv axles, brakes - all of these things are getting to the point where they need to be replaced with that type of milage on them. If they havent been replaced and havent failed already, be prepaired for it.

sounds like the makings of a money pit to me. Quick and easy way to tell if its a all-trac, just look on the dashboard - it says it right there, along with a diagram of the drive train. If it is an all-trac (which i doubt) DEFINATLY stay far away if you have any desire to drive the car more than a week before the rest of the transmission goes to shit. You'd never find a replacement all-trac transmission.

[proj87c]

lol u just pwned this thread...
the forward gears in a tranny use helical gears and the reverse uses a spur gear, therefore reducing the life that the reverse gear will last for.. this is generally not a problem because manufacturers don't expect you to drive in reverse that often, mostly only for parking..since the forward gears are fine, i dont think its a clutch problem, but a worn out reverse gear. sounds like someone might have been doing some crazy driving in reverse thinking they were in a movie or something -.-..and Tommy is right you're probably looking at some very expensive repairs.. sounds kinda like my case cuz i got my 87 LE for $50 but it has a cracked radiator with JB weld on it, then now its giving me more and more problems, so im looking at probably a $500+ fix here..and the exterior of my car is real bad. Rusted holes(big ones) near the back which im going to fix with Bondo. The gen2 camry IS a reliable car with decent mpg when its in GOOD SHAPE..i get about 29 mpg city driving, and think about it my car is in really bad shape. however, i dont think that the good mpg will pay for you repairs, so you have to make a choice. Like Tommy said, make sure whether it is 4wd or not, because its very likely that you won't find a replacement all trac transmission.

[levelbest]

Hmmm.. Thanks folks. I spoke with a local mechanic and will try to arrange to bring it by on Monday. I just called the seller, he lives way out there ... he is now not sure if he was thinking of his older Subaru wagon when he remembers it in 4WD. I asked him to check the specifics for me, badging, dashboard light that said it was in 4WD, button on the shifter. I know there is an "OD" button on the shifter, but I don't know if there is a 4WD button there too. Problem was I was only half sure I was interested and this test drive was short and at the end of the day. Of course the failing hood latch made driving at 55 a bit of a nervous experience. So I concentrated less on the dashboard than I might have.

If I am still interested Monday, and if I can sort all of this out, then I still might do it. Worst case, I drive it in forward gears for 6 months and it craps out all together. Cheaper than renting a car anyway. In fact if I go over a month that is true.

UPDATED:
This is NOT, 4WD. Therefore, is this any different a deal? I know many here are aficionados of this model or Toyotas in general. I also like my T100. But, I want something reliable or easily fixable, and (probably) cheep.

Automatic vs all trac, any difference in what folks have recommended? Would that make replaceing the tranny with a 5 speed or a general automatic more attainable?

Realistic cost so far is
$200. purchase price.

$100 generic muffler installed.

$100 something called Lucas transmission filler. The mechanic said he uses that in peoples cars that want their seals to seal in older transmissions. There is no guarantee but it might be a good serious effort to recover reverse. The fluid isn't $100 but he said they also recommend changing the fluid and installing a new filter. Plus labor is about $100.

I will still be out $200 or $250 for state registration but that is true for any car I get - and would also be true if I shipped my truck here. So that is not a realistic cost in this AFAIK,

This becomes a $400.00 car with the possibility of a marginal reverse with the new fluid. Providing of course the mechanic doesn't turn up anything major.

Oh shiii... I forgot about the starting problem. Hmmmm... With my past experience with Toyotas, and my online reading, a new starter may - or may not, repair this starting problem. Hawaii is a very wet and humid lovation so I would look to replacing the distributor cap first. I would say though that probably another $200 ballpark set aside for a starter or alternator would make sense.

Now we are getting to $600. Still spending involved for the registration even though I said I wasn't counting it.

Wondering though, with the reverse gear being the major problem, in all other ways it seems a very nice little car. And this model should go far. When I take it to the mechanic, if, I take it to the mechanic, I will look hard at the color of the oil on the dipstick and the color of the oil to try and get a feel for how well the engine has been maintained.

Hmmmm... Maybe this is worth it, but maybe not. Random not starting and no backing up aside, it will run around the island OK for $400. But do I really want to live like that? No, probably not for very long.

Hmmm.. again.

We shall see. Even if it is a "bargain", if it isnt't goign to stand up quickly, it probably isnt what I want ritght now. OTO, we shall see... It's a car, and I am a guy, and

[HomeGrown]

There certainly isn't an overabundance of $200 cars, so it's not like you have a wide variety to choose from. I got my wagon "free" (a 1990 4 cyl, auto. with 364k miles). Other than registration and insurance, I haven't put any $$ into it, just time cleaning it up. It's not a bad car, but it has a leak in the power steering system. I may fix it, I may not. Time will tell.

I can't imagine any internal tranny repair being cheap. Kind of hard to not have reverse though... no matter how you plan ahead, you never know when you might actually need it.

Tommy, you brought up some truly legitimate points... it's all potentially true, but it's also a lot of speculation that could scare levelbest away from an otherwise decent beater (subject to mechanics inspection, of course). Every used car will have issues and future repairs. You could speculate yourself right into a brand new car. Now which one is the bigger money pit?

[levelbest]

Yes, it's going to be a beater. A beater with power windows, good interior not bad exterior and a radio that works. And a pretty peppy engine right now. But, a beater non the less. This area is a very non commercial area of Hawaii so mechanics rates are a little lower, $100 for an installed new muffler was a legitimate quote. And, I am not sure if I will go down this road or how far but it should also be mentioned that I have been traveling all over the US continent doing housing inspections as a contractor for FEMA. I did about 500 inspections in the wake of Katrina. I stayed with the national guard and slept on a cot and more than a few times I slept in the back of my truck, All I had there was some good padding and a camper shell. Here in Hawaii I am trying to stretch my savings to the max and I may - I say may choose to sleep in the car from time to time. Public showers, great climate, free land. Well, it’s a Camry wagon so it is also something I can stretch out in - IF, I decided too again.

That and the dealers in that whole region were just as devastated as the people I was helping, all the spare batteries and parts were long off the shelves and into the cops vehicles. I resolved my starting issue for a time by having an extra key made and leaving the truck running a lot of the time. And trust me when I say that Louisiana is flat. Try pushing a T100 by yourself in that heat on a flat parking lot to get her going. Whoa Nellie, you better have eaten your Wheaties that day.

Non of the symptoms I had, really suggested that my starter was the problem. If a starter goes bad, how would giving it a jump from another battery bypass this? Obviously a rolling jump of the clutch would but, also a battery boost would, as I later found out. I think it had a bad battery and a bad starter that took turns confusing me until I replaced them both? Or maybe in a Toyota there is a solenoid on the starter that is weirdly voltage sensitive? I don't know but if I do end up getting this car, I will be picking brains here about that issue fore sure.

I am glad it isn't all trac. With a car this old that has been sitting for at least 6 months, the less fancy it was , the better chances of it not being a current problem. No reverse though. If it is on a slight incline, and can start rolling backwards, the revers does work, very weakly. It is similar to the idea if there was an overdrive gear for reverse, meaning, a very very tall gear that couldn't start the car rolling but once it starts rolling, catches a little with the momentum. No power though if the reverse motion gets interrupted.

I told a good friend of mine about the car. He grew up in a large eastern metropolitan area. He laughed and laughed said, man that sounds so ghetto. Well, yea, I guess so.

I am reserving my enthusiasm till I have it put on a lift. I don't even know yet what condition th CV boots are in. It occurs to be that a working inexpensive Voltage Meter as suggested earlier, might be a good buy too. Right off the bat I want to test the alternator and see how that battery is doing. I guess the shop can do that though ...

[monito]

How long are you going to be in HI?

the answer to that alone will determine if you should spend any more money on the Camwagon.
Honestly, i'd be scared driving any vehicle w/ a transmission on the outs. It's happened to me twice. once on a hill climb.
If you have time, i'd start searchin junkyards for a tranny. If you can find a decent one, and a good mechanic, you may be able to swap out the trannys for about $600-800.

[levelbest]

Good point. I would appreciate some consensus on a point? The reverse is out or very nearly out. Does that in any way affect the rest of the tranny? The obvious aside that no reverse may be a dumb idea in and of it's self. I did test drive it and I wasn't not aware of it slipping, lagging or an any way not being strong in a forward gear. The guy could have been right when he said it was entirely drivable - just without a reverse gear. More mistaken information like it being an AWD car?

What is the consensus that the rest of the tranny is soon to collapse, or this could be an isolated problem for years to come? IOW, if reverse is bad, is forward going out soon an absolute? Or, not necessarily so?

BTW, I passed a little corner where locals sell local cars and there was this old tercel, rusted hood from what appears to have been a fire, not pretty in general. Lots of rust as is typical for around here. It appeared to be an earlier year than the 88 Camry. The window sign said $700 - $800, OBO. Considering that looked to be a typical fixer upper, what I am looking at seems a much better bargain.

I will start asking about replacement trannys.

IMPORTANT SET ASIDE QUESTION:
What year Toyotas, ALL Toyotas, would have trannys to fit this car? JUST a Camry? Also an entry Lexus? What year ranges do I look for, only version 2 like it is (what are those years again?) How many years did the same tranny work as replacement? I know the body work changed and techno features were added, but the tranny bolting to an engine, that is pretty basic I would think. Chassi length dependent I assume. ANy tps on thei to start my search for parts would be helpful - thanks.

[Tommy]

with the v6, youll need to find a 88-91 camry v6 or a 90-91 ES250. You can probably get a later 92 v6 camry v6 transmission in there, but not for sure if it is a direct swap with axles and everything.

how many miles do you think youll put on the thing while you have it?