86 Camry electrical problem

[Cervantes]

Hi!
I'm hoping you can give me a helping hand here. Here's what's up:

1986 camry 4-cyl auto. Trying to teach my roomie how to do car maintenance, I forgot to mention "disconnect the battery". He managed to bridge from the #2 spark plug to the top wire connection on the alternator with the socket wrench, and it had enough juice to make smoke appear from somewhere near the battery. Near as I can figure, the "wiring short" that I've had since I got it that was draining the battery was actually one of the relays in the fusebox stuck open. Anyways...

Since then, turning the key to "ON" only gets me the "charge battery" light on the dash. Headlights and emergency lights work, but none of the internals work (dash, radio, fans, cabin lights, etc). Turning the key gets the 2 relays in the fusebox to click, but I don't get any juice to my starter motor.

I've checked all the fuses (including the circuit breakers in the left and right side panels inside), the battery is OK, the starter is OK, and I just spent all afternoon pulling apart the entire wiring harness between the alternator, starter, battery, and fusebox, and there's no damage to the wires there at all (that I can see). The fusebox seems OK, I can't see any damage to it, or where the wires connect to the underside. I have no idea what smoked, but I'm starting to think it was either water from the battery, or crap on one of the connectors. I've checked continuity from the fuse box Engine Main relay all the way to the starter, and it comes through just fine. I've pulled and checked both circuit breakers in the cabin fuseboxes, tried powering off another car just to be sure it wasn't my battery, jumped directly to the starter motor to make sure it was OK (it was, solenoid kicked over)... and probably a dozen other things that I'm forgetting to mention.

Anyways, I'm out of ideas as to what could be wrong. Do you have any ideas what could be causing me not to get anything but the one warning light, and no love?

Thanks very much,
Cerv

PS: While trolling this site I have been very impressed by it. Now I want to find a digi gauge panel and put it in (last thread I read). And if I can get it running, I hope to harass ya'll about many more mods... including how to make it more amenable to a 6'5" guy.

[Kanmuri86]

haha sry man, i have no clue.

some electrical guru will get too it tho.

and yeah man, we are some of the few with 86's.
so def keep trying and get it running. and then start a build thread, so we can share ideas.

right now, im lowering, and taking of the rubber on my camry, buying and fitting some nice old school jdm wheels on it, deep dish, like some ssr, or riken. then working on my engine to make it perfect. its only got 78k on it! haha..

but sorry /threadjack.

hope someone helps!

[Kep]

Have you checked the (two I believe) in line fuses right at the battery pos post? You checked the fuses for continuity, how about available power?

Kep

[WannaBButch]

I did the same thing once. There's a green fusible link... type thing. What's the word for it. It looks just like a regular wire but it's designed to break if the current is too high. It's under the fuse box that is connected to the positive battery post. Sorry I don't have the words for everything but you can get the spool of special wire from any parts store for a few dollars. if you check under the little box by the positive battery post you can probably see the burnt wire.

[Cervantes]

Todays update:

So, I played with the positive battery cable today. Both fuses tested fine, and I tested the wiring that ran from that fuse box to it's various locales, and they tested fine too. I tested the main power cable that runs to the starter, and the accessory cable that also runs from the positive terminal to ... the starter, I think. They all tested fine. I was at wits end. I was mucking around with the positive cable, just making fun beeping noises from my voltmeter and trying to think what else it could be, when... no signal. Hmm?

Yes, folks, it turns out that in addition to the main fusible cable (which was fine) (thank you, Haynes manual, for pointing that out. NOT!), there is (at least on my car) a SECOND fusible wire link, that runs from the smaller wire on the positive terminal, between the actual terminal connection and the first split in the wire. I was getting positive signal on it because my probe was touching the terminal connector. Once I tried to get it on the wire itself, all dead. The insulation/plastic on it was SPOTLESS, completely unblemished, but the wire itself, definitely toast. I (temporarily) jumpered past it, and ... well, I'd love this story to have a happy ending, but, not yet.

So, it still won't turn over. Starter motor kicks in, the first time I turned it over it ran for a very short bit and then puttered out, and now the starter just turns but the car doesn't catch. I'm unsure if this is related to the maintenance I did (oil change, oil filter, air filter, spark plugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor) or if something else might have been toasted.
Suggestions?

(also, my #2 Fan circuit is stuck open, scared the tar out of me when i connected the battery. Hopefully I can find a wreckers in Edmonton that has an 85/86 camry, I don't want to pay $70 for a new one)

Anyways, I'd appreciate more advice. Also, yay for progress! And learning experience! And pulling your hair out!

[Kep]

Check to make sure that the fan wire is plugged onto the temp sensor. I believe that they run continuously when unplugged.

The car took a lot of unwanted amps to who-knows-where when the spark and alternator were bridged. You might want to pull the ECU and open it up to look for singe marks. Before that, just for grins, pull the battery wire again and reset the ECU. See if it does the brief start up routine again.

Do you have fuel and spark at the cylinders? Squirt some starter fluid (not much, don't want to crack the head...) into the air intake and see if the car sputters. If it does, you have spark but no fuel. If it doesn't you probably don't have spark and you may or may not have fuel (usually you do).

Verify that your timing belt hasn't broken. You do have your air hose connected, right?

Kep

[Cervantes]

Hi!
Todays update:
More checking, more parts saying they're OK. Cold start injector, EFI relay, solenoid resistor, distributor cap, and a bunch of other things say they're fine. The only thing that was slightly out of spec was the diagnostic on my air sensor. The last test came up slightly out of range. Also, again, today, first time I turned it over it caught for a bit, but after that no joy. Also, new development (I think)... randomly, when I turn it over, the entire electrical cuts out (circuit breaker tripping, I'm sure), pulling the battery resets it and it's fine. Any ideas how to track down what's causing this?

Now that I at least have power, i tried to run the diagnostic. Despite my best efforts, I couldn't get it to run. I bridged E1 and T, but no joy. The diagnostic cap is full of crap, but I'm pretty sure i cleaned it out enough to get connection. Also, I noticed that when I turn the key, the "Check Engine" light doesn't come on. I truly can't recall whether it normally does or not. Anyone know? All my other dash lights seem to come on fine.

The fan is running because it's relay is stuck open, I'm pretty sure. I'll get a new one from scrap if I ever get this going.

Where is the ECU located? My Haynes doesn't really tell me much for an 86. If my Check Engine light is supposed to come on when I turn the key (and I verify the bulb isn't just burnt out), might this mean that my ECU is fried?

Timing belt seems fine, air hose is on, double checked all the vacuum tubes, pulled the distributor cap and made sure i had it and the rotor on right, verified I've got power to the connectors in there.

Got a friend helping me out tomorrow, we'll check spark and fuel then. I'm not car savy enough yet to want to try this alone.

I did mention that I got the Camry so I could slowly learn cars and practice repairs and such? Yeah, so much for that plan.
Anyways, if anyone has any further ideas or suggestions, they'd be very, very much appreciated. My spare car has developed a brake line leak, so I need to get one or the other road-worthy soon

[Kep]

Ah ha, the CEL should come on when the key is turned to on along with all of the other indicator lamps.

In the 3SFE Gen 2 if the CEL doesn't come on during the POST the first things to check are the EFI relay and EFI fuse in the engine compartment fuse box just aft of the battery. I also believe that there is one labeled "Main" that should be checked. You gave the system quite a jolt. It wouldn't hurt to look at the wiring below the fuse box to make sure that they are all still in good condition (you did mention smoke near the battery). I am unfamiliar with the Gen 1s but it may be similar. This would explain most of your problems.

*************************
This is copied from "Tech Tip Corner"

Relay Runaround on Toyota Models
A faulty main circuit opening relay may cause an intermittent no-start condition on several Toyota models. If you are lucky enough to get the vehicle from the customer when it won't start, try this simple check before you waste any time on complicated diagnosis:

• Turn the ignition to the ON position. The CHECK ENGINE light should be ON.
• If the CHECK ENGINE light is not ON, locate the main circuit opening relay, then make sure you have more than nine volts on the output pole of the relay with the ignition in the ON position.
• If the output voltage is below nine volts, but the input voltage to the relay is equal to battery voltage, replace the circuit opening relay. Its internal contacts are probably pitted and arced, which creates a voltage drop inside the relay.

I've spent more than one day on more than one car, trying to find an intermittent relay. Now I check the CHECK ENGINE light before I do any further diagnosis.

Brad Foltz
Miller Auto Group
Hedgeville, West Virginia


I am pretty sure that he is referring to the EFI relay. If your CEL isn't on when you put the key in accessory position it is awful suspicious. You may want to focus on the EFI wiring and the like

********************

The ECU in a 3SFE is over the hump between the driver side and passenger side and below the radio. You can remove it by unplugging it and undoing the four (I believe) screws holding it to the body. It then slides out.

Sounds like a great learning experience. Be sure to let us know what it turns out to be.

Kep

[Cervantes]

Das update:
Seems to be running! ECU problem was a fuse. I checked them all (repeatedly) over the weekend, but I guess at some point in my wiring checking and battery on-and-off-ing since, the EFI fuse blew. Felt really dumb, asking my greasemonkey friend to come over again to help (he refused to have anything to do with checking wiring, and I don't blame him!) and all it turned out to be was the fuse. *sigh* Anyways, replaced it and drove it to work this morning. Still need to re-wrap the wiring harness and replace the fuel filter, but it seemed to make it. Also, the "rad fan running 100%" problem is because the wire got ripped off the temperature sensor (the one that connects below the alternator). Still haven't figured out how to get the dang plug off so I can repair it, but until then i just pulled the fan#2 relay.

It's certainly running a lot smoother than it was before I did the maintenance. My steering wheel no longer vibrates until it makes noise. Yay! Hopefully the fuel mileage picks up too!

However, still one or two questions:

- When starting, the starter motor has to turn over 5-6 times before the engine catches. Is this normal? I'm used to cars that just pop right on.
- When I went out to work on it yesterday, the battery was drained. I don't think I left anything on, so I'm worried I may have a short somewhere. What's the best way to try and narrow down where the short might be? Or to see if I have one at all?
- It seems to be running at slightly higher RPM compared to before it's maintenance (plugs, wires, cap, rotor, oil, filter, air filter), although maybe it's just my brain tricking me. Would this be expected behavior? What's the best way to drop the idle to the lowest possible setting? (this is my "going to work and around the city" car, so I want it tuned for stop-and-go traffic rather than highway fun).

Tonight, I'll put all the panels back together, redo the wiring harness, check my alternator to make sure it's putting out juice, and if they have any at the store, I'll replace my fusible wire and positive battery terminal (took a beating trying to get the &(@*$ fusible wire off). Hopefully I don't have a short, and all will be well in the world.

[Mike Gerber]

"1.- When starting, the starter motor has to turn over 5-6 times before the engine catches. Is this normal? I'm used to cars that just pop right on.
2. - When I went out to work on it yesterday, the battery was drained. I don't think I left anything on, so I'm worried I may have a short somewhere. What's the best way to try and narrow down where the short might be? Or to see if I have one at all?
3. - It seems to be running at slightly higher RPM compared to before it's maintenance (plugs, wires, cap, rotor, oil, filter, air filter), although maybe it's just my brain tricking me. Would this be expected behavior?"

Question 1. No, this is not normal. I suggest a good throttle body cleaning and running some fuel injector cleaner through it. Also, check the cold start time switch with a digital volt/ohmeter and the specs from any manual. They commonly go out of range after quite a few miles and cause hard starting when the engine is cold. It is located on a water coolant port to the right of the cylinder head, under a brown plastic connector.
Question 2. You probably just wore the battery down from all the attempts to start it.
Question 3. On the 86 2SE engine you can manually adjust the idle. There is a rubber plug on one of the tubes coming up from the right side of the intack plenum as you are standing in front of the engine. (I'm going from memory here.) Remove that plug and you will see a slotted screw down in that tube. That screw adjusts the idle speed. Check for a sticker under the hood of the car for the proper idle speed.

Mike

[Cervantes]

Thanks for the quick reply
I'll try some fuel injector cleaner and go from there. I can't disassemble the throttle body until (a) I get my other vehicle working, or (b) I have a few days off, since knowing my luck it'd turn into a 7 day ordeal. I checked the cold-start switch when I was digging through all my electrical, it's right in range.

And, since I like jacking my own thread, here's another random question: My cruise control. When I use it, it seems to have a range of at least 5km/h. I'll set it at 110, and it'll let me drift down to at least 105, sometimes lower, before it kicks in. I know it's not exactly cutting edge equipment, but is this normal? Or is there something I can do to make it more... useful? Cuz if I hit Highway 2 with cruise on, I'm certain to get shotgunned halfway there by people annoyed with my speed-up-slow-down style.

Originally Posted by Mike Gerber

Question 1. No, this is not normal. I suggest a good throttle body cleaning and running some fuel injector cleaner through it. Also, check the cold start time switch with a digital volt/ohmeter and the specs from any manual. They commonly go out of range after quite a few miles and cause hard starting when the engine is cold. It is located on a water coolant port to the right of the cylinder head, under a brown plastic connector.
Question 2. You probably just wore the battery down from all the attempts to start it.
Question 3. On the 86 2SE engine you can manually adjust the idle. There is a rubber plug on one of the tubes coming up from the right side of the intack plenum as you are standing in front of the engine. (I'm going from memory here.) Remove that plug and you will see a slotted screw down in that tube. That screw adjusts the idle speed. Check for a sticker under the hood of the car for the proper idle speed.

Mike

[Mike Gerber]

To do the throttle body cleaning you only have to remove the big tube going form the air flow meter to the throttle body, on the throttle body end. Everything you need to access is right inside there. Just be sure to use throttle body cleaner or O2 safe carb cleaner. Here is a good thread on how to do it:

How to: Cleaning Throttle Body, Pictorial

I'm not really sure on the cruise control problem.

Mike

[Cervantes]

Thanks! Throttle body cleaning looks much less terrifying than advertised. I'll give it a shot when I do the fuel filter and bits from the wreckers tomorrow.

Now, here's an odd one I just noticed when I was driving home today. My speakers don't work anymore. The radio does, it turns on and gives me function, but I get no noise. I wouldn't expect this to be the case with this model, from what I've read the speakers don't have an amp, and just go right to the radio, which has it's own fuse. So, is it likely I've blown them somehow, or that something else is wrong?

Also, since this has turned into the "let me do everything I possibly can to my Camry" thread.... I've been meaning to inquire somewhere for a while now, and since everyone is so dang friendly here...

When accelerating hard, I can occasionally here a metallic clatter from the engine. There is also a delay between the engine revving and the acceleration actually happening. I presume this is one of my valves? Is this something I can reasonably service myself, and if so, what problem(s) am I looking for?

[Kep]

The cruise control on my 90 Camry seemed to have similar problems. I think it is just the nature of the beast.

+1 on what Mike said.

If the power drain keeps on happening I would look hard at the places that you have been messing with the wiring. If you still can't find it there is the trick of putting an indicator light (12 volt light) between the positive post and the battery cable when the car is off. If there is a power drain the light will illuminate. Now, one by one, remove the fuses. If the light stays lit, replace the fuse and go on to the next. When the light goes out you know that you have removed the fuse of the offending circuit. Then you have to trace out that circuit to find the actual culprit.

Just a guess on the idle speed. Disconnecting the battery resets the ECU to its defaults. It could take a couple of hundred miles to reprogram it. Maybe it will improve after a few more days. If not, post again and see what suggestions come up.

Kep