Car not cranking, injector problem?

[Guido Anchovy]

Hi! I have a 1988 Gen 2 with the 3S-FE and the auto trans with ECT. I just did an engine swap with another 1988 3S-FE. Everything is hooked back up (that I can tell), but I cannot get it to fire. It acts like it's not getting fuel, so maybe the injectors are stuck?

Here is what I've done today to try to get the engine to fire:
1. Replaced air valve (had an extra, working)
2. Checked No 10 & No 20 (injector bank wires) & ground on ECU harness
3. Replaced ECU (extra, working)
4. Checked ECU ground on back of intake manifold & all other grounds under the hood
5. Checked EGR valve (used, but working)
6. Checked all vacuum lines (they are all new)
7. Fuel pressure is getting to the rails and the cold start injector
8. Cold start injector isn't firing, even though it is the same one from the old engine and was working before the swap
9. Hooked one of the old injectors to a battery & ground to see if it clicked, and it did. *Have not tried hooking one of the replacement motor's injectors to power and ground yet, though*


The car will run for about 5 seconds on starting fluid or WD-40, but then it's back to endless cranking.

Is there anything that I maybe have missed (other than testing the individual injectors, which I'm doing later this week)? I'm stumped.

[Doctor J]

Have you checked for spark?

[phild01]

Originally Posted by Guido Anchovy

Hi! I have a 1988 Gen 2 with the 3S-FE and the auto trans with ECT. I just did an engine swap with another 1988 3S-FE. Everything is hooked back up (that I can tell), but I cannot get it to fire. It acts like it's not getting fuel, so maybe the injectors are stuck?

Here is what I've done today to try to get the engine to fire:
1. Replaced air valve (had an extra, working)
2. Checked No 10 & No 20 (injector bank wires) & ground on ECU harness
3. Replaced ECU (extra, working)
4. Checked ECU ground on back of intake manifold & all other grounds under the hood
5. Checked EGR valve (used, but working)
6. Checked all vacuum lines (they are all new)
7. Fuel pressure is getting to the rails and the cold start injector
8. Cold start injector isn't firing, even though it is the same one from the old engine and was working before the swap
9. Hooked one of the old injectors to a battery & ground to see if it clicked, and it did. *Have not tried hooking one of the replacement motor's injectors to power and ground yet, though*


The car will run for about 5 seconds on starting fluid or WD-40, but then it's back to endless cranking.

Is there anything that I maybe have missed (other than testing the individual injectors, which I'm doing later this week)? I'm stumped.

I too have a similiar experience from recent engine swap ('87 sv21 3sfe). But once started after squirting petrol into cold start injector, engine keeps running. Was told to check computer earth connection but don't know where to look (somewhere behind radio and dread pulling that out). But now car won't run ..getting yellow spark rather than blue. Hope there is more help coming on this one.

[Guido Anchovy]

Originally Posted by Doctor J

Have you checked for spark?

Yep, all 4 plugs are working like they should.

The cold start injector isn't firing, though. It is in working order, though.


Phild01, yeah, the computer is behind the radio. You can get a good look at it and its harness by getting down in the floor of the right side floorboard and pulling the carpet back away from the radio area.

[Doctor J]

Unplug electrical connector from cold start injector; verify that 12V is present on the terminal connected to the black wire [not the green one!] while cranking the starter;
if yes, check the cold start injector timer connector.

[phild01]

I was advised the computer controls the cold start injector. Mine checks out fine re voltage. Another influential factor I believe is the temperature sensor which feeds back to the computer. Advice given to me is to check the computer earth, wherever that is. sorry not much more help on this.

[Doctor J]

On pre 92 camry 4 cylinder the computer is NOT controlling the cold start injector

[Kep]

Why did you decide to do a swap? What were the symptoms of the old engine?

What sensors and parts did you reuse and which did you replace? (eg: ECU, igniter, distributor, engine sensors, cold start timer, etc...)

How confident are you that you didn't break any of the harness wires?

Are there any CEL codes? (Not likely but I thought I'd ask)

Does the Check Engine Light come on when you turn the key on (when all of the dash lights come on)?

Out of curiosity, what is the temperature there?

Kep

[Guido Anchovy]

Originally Posted by Kep

Why did you decide to do a swap? What were the symptoms of the old engine?

Engine was losing compression, but otherwise was running fine. It had 250K miles on it and one of the previous owners was lax on oil changes.

Originally Posted by Kep

What sensors and parts did you reuse and which did you replace? (eg: ECU, igniter, distributor, engine sensors, cold start timer, etc...)

I reused all sensors (most were relatively new replacements), reused the plug wires cap rotor and coil (replaced about 10k miles ago), new plugs, reused cold start injector, reused throttle body, new fuel filter.

Originally Posted by Kep

How confident are you that you didn't break any of the harness wires?

I was very careful not to disturb the harness any more than I had to because the some of the wiring and connectors are getting brittle.

Originally Posted by Kep

Are there any CEL codes? (Not likely but I thought I'd ask)

Nope.

Originally Posted by Kep

Does the Check Engine Light come on when you turn the key on (when all of the dash lights come on)?

Yeah, but no blink codes. I guess because it hasn't been running.

Originally Posted by Kep

Out of curiosity, what is the temperature there?

About 95 degrees F, which explains why the cold start injector wasn't firing (thanks Doctor J!).

I wonder if maybe the injectors are plugged up with varnished gasoline? The engine has been in a temp controlled storage building for about 6-8 years and was filled up with fluids (oil, tranny fluid) before going into storage.

[Doctor J]

In order to get CEL codes you must jump T andE1 terminals in diagnostic box, then turn ignition on , so the CEL will display the code by flashing.
I don't know where the replacement engine came from, but any used engine MUST be leakdown tested.
if it just came as is, attach vacuum gage [or pump] to the intake plenum [in place of cruise control vacuum hose, crank the engine and look for 5 inches of vacuum. No vacuum means no compression.

[Guido Anchovy]

Originally Posted by Doctor J

In order to get CEL codes you must jump T andE1 terminals in diagnostic box, then turn ignition on , so the CEL will display the code by flashing.
I don't know where the replacement engine came from, but any used engine MUST be leakdown tested.
if it just came as is, attach vacuum gage [or pump] to the intake plenum [in place of cruise control vacuum hose, crank the engine and look for 5 inches of vacuum. No vacuum means no compression.

I just checked the CEL codes a few min ago and unfortunately there are none.

The engine came from my grandfather's Camry that we were parting out years ago. It has around 60k miles on it. Nonetheless, I will check the vacuum lines like you suggested later this week and see if there's a vacuum leak.

Thanks again for the suggestions!

[Kep]

I like DoctorJ's points a lot.

You say that you are getting the correct fuel pressure to the rail. Why not swap out the injectors from the running engine just in case the ones from the replacement engine are worn.

I don't think this will affect the start-ability of the engine but have you openned the valve cover to make sure that the oil passages and such look clean? Be a shame to trash the engine in the first couple of hours just because it hadn't been cleaned.

Kep

[Guido Anchovy]

Originally Posted by Kep

I like DoctorJ's points a lot.

You say that you are getting the correct fuel pressure to the rail. Why not swap out the injectors from the running engine just in case the ones from the replacement engine are worn.

I don't think this will affect the start-ability of the engine but have you openned the valve cover to make sure that the oil passages and such look clean? Be a shame to trash the engine in the first couple of hours just because it hadn't been cleaned.

Kep

Yeah, I'm gonna try this later in the week. The injectors from the old engine, though worn, should allow me to get it going. If they do work, all I'll need to do is pick up some new ones!

Took the valve cover and oil pan off of the engine before it went on the car and the insides were as clean as a whistle!

[Kep]

If handled gently, installed properly and kept clean injectors are very long lasting. If the original engine was running those four were probably OK. If the engine still doesn't run after exchanging the replacements with the originals then the problem would most likely be elsewhere. Once you do exchange them you may be able to clean out the others and then pick and choose the four with the best spray pattern from the eight that you have.

The clue that I keep coming back to is that you can use starter fluid and it fires up. I tend to believe that exonerates the electrical system and puts the focus on the fuel system. If the injectors were completely clogged then it wouldn't fire with starter fluid either. I don't know what happens if they're partially plugged or not sequencing correctly. I will look forward to reading how you resolve this.

Kep

[Guido Anchovy]

Problem Solved!

Turns out the injectors were clogged with gasoline that had turned to varnish. We were able to get 3 of the injectors to un-stick by zapping them with the battery directly. The third took some tapping and zapping at the same time to finally break free. Car's running like a champ now.

Thanks for the help guys!