1986 Camry won't start

[runnr]

I apologize for this very LONG post, but I'm desperate. My 1986 Camry with 253K miles won't run. It ran normally for a few seconds before settling in a slow idle on one cold morning. Until it warmed up, the RPM did not respond to throttle. Once warmed, I could rev it to 3500 rpm in neutral, but had absolutely no power in gear. There was never black smoke, and I couldn't find evidence of a vacuum leak while it was idling. After shutting it down, it wouldn't start again. The plugs seemed very dry, like they weren't getting enough fuel, even though the fuel pump worked. Initially, I was not getting any computer error codes, and then briefly later, an 11 blink code( includes
air conditioning switch and throttle position sensor ), then nothing abnormal after that. I don't know why I was briefly getting an 11 blink code.
Here is what I've done, so far:
1) Replaced the original Nippodenso with a new Airtex fuel pump.
I might have switched two tiny hoses of the same diameter to the vapor separator when re-installing the tank. After replacing the pump,
the engine seems to be flooding with the #1 plug being much wetter than the #4 plug.
2) Replaced the original pressure regulator with a Tomco regulator.
No difference.
3) Checked every resistance and continuity reading I could, using the factory service manual. That includes the cold start injector timer, the water temperature sensor, the air valve, the cold start injector, the fuel injector solenoid resistor, ( it has fins and mounts near the mass airflow meter), the circuit opening relay behind the glove box, the mass airflow meter, and the throttle position sensor(TPS). My test of the TPS continuity was crude in that I didn't measure angles, but the continuity readings seemed consistent with the specs for a barely, mostly and completely opened throttle plate.
The solenoid resistor measures a little above specs, 3.4 ohms rather than 2-3 ohms. The mass airflow meter measured way above specs between terminals E2 and Vs, 776 ohms vs normal 20-400 ohms when the air door is closed. All other specs were OK on it, except that the E2-Vs readings were erratic and exceeded 1000 ohms when I opened the air door.
4) I replaced the mass airflow meter with a used one from Ebay, which
checked out OK on the resistance readings, especially on the E2-Vs terminal readings when the air door is closed. One thing about it, as I open the air door, the resistance readings don't go steadily from low readings to 1000 ohms, in fact, they peak and start to decrease when the door is opened enough. I don't know if that's normal. Anyway, the replacement mass airflow meter didn't make a difference.
5) I can get the car to run from a few to several seconds if I pull the EFI main relay out and crank. There must be enough fuel to let one or more cylinders run for a second or so. I can do this several times. Once after doing this several times, I reinstalled the EFI main relay and got it to run slow for 5 seconds. Generally, cranking with the EFI main relay in leads to a very wet #1 plug. I reconnected the EFI main relay,
6) I have not been able to measure fuel pressure( don't have the 8mm banjo fitting) or resistance of the injectors( I can't get the spring clips loose).
I don't think the EGR valve or brake booster or its check valve are leaking.
I think the PCV valve works, although I will try replacing it if I can yank it out. Since I replaced the fuel filter a couple of years ago, I doubt it's bad and also, the inside of the gas tank was very clean when I replaced the fuel pump.

I'm afraid to tow it to a mechanic because it may be something really expensive, like a complete injector job or a defective ECU, or who knows?
How hard is it to replace the injectors? It seems like you need to yank out the intake manifold, which probably has gaskets. Space seems cramped since the engine is tilted toward the firewall.

Does anyone have any good ideas? Biking 19 miles to and from work in the winter is getting to be a drag. Thanks!

[Doctor J]

I would make sure that timing belt did not jump a tooth.[just to be sure that problem is not mechanical.
then verify that ECU has a good ground.
It sounds to me like car now is only running at cold start injector.

[runnr]

Thanks. I'm really sure it didn't jump time because the compression is good and the rotor lines up with the #1 plug when the timing mark is at 5 degrees BTDC( I retarded it from the recommended 10 degree BTDC setting to eliminate pinging). Also, it shows a strong spark on a neon timing light,
so I think it's a fuel problem. The #1 and #2 plugs are way more wet than the #3 and #4 plugs, probably too wet.
I read a post on this forum about difficulty in starting a 1986 Camry that was finally diagnosed as an uneven spray pattern in the cold start injector.
It was spraying off to one side, flooding two of the cylinders and missing the other two. This wouldn't be hard to remove, compared with the injectors in the fuel rail, but I'm not sure how I could test the spray pattern without special equipment. Wouldn't you need to supply fuel under pressure to observe the pattern when you apply 12 volts? I'm not crazy about replacing expensive injectors without knowing with certainty that they are bad. I've already spent nearly $200 on parts on the basis of "good guesses".

[Mike Gerber]

I know you think it's a fuel problem, but just to rule it out check the coil inside the distributor. It may be producing a spark, but not a strong enough spark. Use your volt ohmeter and the specs from any manual. Also inspect it for hairline cracks. Just a hunch here, since you got it to rev past 3500 in neutral when warm, but no power in gear. It takes less of a spark to fire the fuel mixture once the car is warm since the mixture is a bit leaner.

Mike

[runnr]

I think it's getting a strong spark because the neon light(not a fancy xenon inductive timing light) flashes brightly, visible in strong daylight,
but I'll try to diagnose the coil with my volt-ohmeter.
Only a few years old, the distributor cap is in good condition.
You're right that a weak spark could produce some of the symptoms.

[Doctor J]

use spark tester from autozone to check the spark strength.
What place are you located??

[runnr]

I think the Nippodenso spark plugs are OK. I cleaned and regapped them, and they weren't too old to begin with. Autozone is a local chain,but I didn't know that had a spark plug tester. I could buy new ones, but I doubt it will make a difference. I tried replacing the old PCV valve, but it broke while I was straining to remove it from the grommet. I hope I can get the lower half out, without it falling in or I'll need to remove the valve cover.
It probably isn't the PCV valve, but a new one wouldn't hurt.

I used to like my Toyota, but now I think I like my bicycle better.
If only there were a kit to circumvent the fuel injection and ECU and convert it to a carburetor.

[Doctor J]

The spark tester is a spark plug with wide electrode gap[4 times normal and alligator clip that clips to the good ground[engine block]; the spark must jump this gap.
Make sure that you have power on ECU B+ terminal and ECU has good ground
I guess we should buy cabureted car with point type ignition such as Russian made Volga M-21 [1955]

[Doctor J]

Removal of EFI main relay disables the heater in the idle air bypass valve; pull both hoses from it and make sure the gap inside is 3 mm or wider @15 degrees C
http://www.autozone.com/addVehicleId...epairGuide.htm

[runnr]

I wish it were Huntington Beach( much warmer), but it's Huntington, WV.
It was recently identified in a study as America's Fattest City.
I didn't know the IAC valve is disabled when the EFI main relay is removed.
I'll remove the IAC valve this weekend to see if it's sticking.
I think it's supposed to be open when it's cold and closed when the engine warms up. Because new ones are ridiculously expensive, I don't want to replace it unless I'm sure it's causing trouble.
I'll also try to extricate the lower half of the PCV valve, which broke when I was trying to remove it. Finally, I'll remove the cold start injector and have a look. Those are expensive, too.

Right now, I'd be happy with a 1955 Volga if it ran. It would carry more groceries than my bicycle baskets.

[Doctor J]

Leaking cold start injector can be checked for leakage by turning ignition on and shorting the fuel pump test terminal[do not start the engine] if injector drips, it has to be preplaced .
On 1983 camry the fuel pump strainer broke off ; it traveled into the fuel line and plugged it. [The pump was replaced first without results. We used low pressure air to blow the fuel line from the fuel filter toward the tank, and the broken piece came out.
Also at the end of delivery pipe [behind the throttle body] remove the yellow plastic cover from the pulsation damper. As the fuel pressure builds up in the system the screw in the center of the damper sticks out about 1/16 of inch

[runnr]

On the cold start injector, I won't be able to tell if it's dripping without removing it. I just hope I can remove it and still have it connected to its fuel line to see if it drips with the ignition on and the fuel pump running.

I did investigate the fuel pulsation damper: your description is correct on how far the screw sticks out. It definitely indicates fuel pressure in the fuel rail.

If I could find an 8 mm banjo fitting, I could measure fuel pressure to see if it drops after I shut off the fuel pump, an indication of leaky injectors.
Alas, no one sells this adapter around here. The Haynes Manual says you can substitute an 8 mm bolt with its center drilled out, but I'm wearing out drill bits trying to drill 8.8 grade bolts. The hardware stores don't sell a softer grade.

You solved an interesting fuel delivery problem in your 1983 Camry.
Fortunately, the strainer sock on my fuel pump was intact and clean, so I'm sure nothing is blocking the delivery of fuel from the tank.

If I run out of ideas, I could try to get my backup car going, a real P.O.S. high mileage 1989 Sentra which needs new CV joints, has a rusty rear chassis, runs like it's out of tune, and wants to start if I dump gasoline in the throttle body, but for some reason, the fuel pump isn't delivering. It used to start, but now that I really need it, it won't. Anyway, a completely different engineering problem for a different forum.

[toored]

runnr, I have two 1986 Camry's. One I've owned since 1989 and one since 2003. I have experienced most of the common problems associated with these cars at some point but haven't faced your problem exactly.
I will share some info I have learned on my own Camrys that may help.

That may have been my post you read regarding the cold start injector. I went through 3 junk yard injectors before I found one that had a good spray pattern. However, I don't think your problem is connected to the cold start injector directly. If the injector is bad (low flow or poor spray pattern) the car would be difficult to start but once started it would run good the rest of the time (as mine did). I wouldn't suspect the main injectors or spark plugs as they wouldn't all fail at the same time. To test the cold start injector, you will need to remove the fuel line from it long enough to extract it from the manifold, then reinstall the fuel line. I got the wife to attempt to start the engine while I watched the injector. Mine wasn't leaking with the test terminal shorted but the spray pattern was way off, probably due to clogging.

Doctor J may be right about your car only running on the cold start injector because each time you cycle the ignition to the crank position the injector will spray for a second or two. However, have you tried spraying starting fluid into the air filter box and attempted to start it? If you do and it runs at high RPM for a couple of seconds and dies this may rule out valve timing or ignition issues.

Doctor J mentioned a possibly clogged fuel line. Although your fuel strainer is in good condition, don't discount the possibility that the main feed line may be clogged down line from the pump. One of my Camry's was plagued for 15 years where it would shut off going down the road at highway speed (scary) but would restart once it sat still for a minute or two. I replaced the pump, strainer, filter, etc with no help until one day I removed the pump and blew compressed air back through the lines. It turns out that a piece of sealer had gotten into the main feed line (apparently during car assembly) and would clog it just long enough to shut down the engine until the fuel pressure bled off. Then it would start fine and run for days to weeks before the sealer clogged the line and it happened again.

Have you checked the air snorkel that runs from the air filter box to the EFI manifold for cracks or holes? I have had to replace both of mine. If the snorkel cracks through and is sucking air (as mine did), the engine will run very badly or enter a droop mode where it will idle slowly but won't respond to throttle input. The same would be true for a faulty throttle position sensor, which I have also replaced on one of my cars. I know you checked yours with a meter but the fact that it faulted with a blinking Check Engine light may indicate an intermittent problem.

You mentioned a very wet #1 plug after start attempt after disconnecting/reconnecting the Main EFI relay and #1 and #2 plugs being too wet. It would seem that the engine should fire if enough fuel is entering the cylinders to wet the plug to that extent. As mentioned before, you have spark indication with a neon timing light. However, as Mike Gerber mentioned, a weak spark would indicate on your light but may not be strong enough to fire the fuel/air charge, especially in a cold engine. The coils on these cars are notorious for failing due to heat cracks. I've replaced both of mine. As Doctor J mentioned, the ignition tester from Autozone is a good idea.

I know it sux having to "shot gun" parts as they are so expensive. Having two of these cars makes it easier for me as I can rob parts from one to help diagnose the other. Are there no junk yards near you to get parts from? Or could you find some member on Toyotanation that may live near you that would allow you to try parts from their car? I know ebay is good but you never know what you're getting until it arrives.

I hope some of this may help you. Don't give up; these are great cars but are getting very aged now.

[runnr]

Toored,
Thanks for the information and suggestions.
I hope Dr. J's suggestion about it only running on the cold start injector isn't correct, otherwise it leads to a big question,"Why?". I, too, can't believe the regular injectors have suddenly become plugged, so their failure to operate could be an ECU issue. If the ECU has Alzheimers, then I'm in BIG trouble. The resistance readings on the EFI relay behind the glove box were fine and I can feel that relay working when I crank the engine.
One thing I haven't done yet is check the resistance of the regular injectors:
I can't remove the clips to pull off the plugs. I did observe a 3.6 ohm reading on the finned solenoid resistor( it connnects directly to the injectors), which is higher than the normal 2-3 ohm reading.
Judging from the operation of the fuel pulsation damper and the wet #1 and #2 plugs, it seems like there's no blockage in the fuel line, but I should attempt to blow air into the line to check. I should also try checking the fuel return line; if it were blocked, it might contribute to overly high pressure because the regulator shunts excess pressure into the return line. It will be hard to check because I have nothing to connect in an air-tight way to the banjo fittings, in fact, I don't have an appropriate fuel pressure gauge with an 8 mm banjo fitting, moreover, no local auto parts store sells one. Maybe I can check the return line from the fuel tank side, if I can remember which one it is. I don't want to lower the tank again if I can avoid it. What a pain,
especially draining the fuel tank.
I replaced the coil, distributor cap and plug wires within the last 3 years. I've hooked a neon timing light between the cap and spark plug on two or three cylinders and always got a very bright flash when cranking, so I think the spark is strong. The rotor position lines up with the #1 plug on the distributor when the timing mark is at 5 degrees BTDC, which is how I set it to reduce pinging with regular gasoline. I can't say with certainty what the ECU is doing in the way of advancing or retarding timing, but the static timing and compression readings in the cylinder do not indicate a slipped timing belt,
even though I last changed it 70,000 miles ago. Despite the 60,000 mile service recommendation, timing belts can go approximately 100,000 miles before breaking.
I haven't disassembled and thoughly cleaned out the throttle body, nor I have I purchased a new throttle position sensor. The 11 blink code only occured once, on the day it started acting up. It has never occured again,
but I haven't been able to get the engine to run for more than 5 seconds since that first day. As I recall, there was no error code, initially, then the 11 blink code occured later, then never again.
I can't find any leaks in the air hose to the throttle body, nor in any vacuum hoses. I removed and plugged the hose the power brake booster when it was running poorly on that first day, but it made no difference.
I didn't hear any hissing from the white booster check valve, so I doubt it was leaking. One thing I did notice when it was running poorly on that first day was a hard brake pedal, as though the engine was not producing enough vacuum to operate the booster effectively, but I could never find a vacuum leak.
This weekend, I only checked the air idle control valve and cold start injector. The AIC valve seems to be clean, unobstructed and the bimetal strip works properly to close the air bleed when I put it in front of a space heater. I merely removed the cold start injector, but have been unable to test spray pattern. Unfortunately, I don't have any helpers to crank the engine while I observe. I did notice crusty carbon junk on the body, although none obstructing the hole, but there could be crud inside.
I wish I had a long flexible connector which hooks up to the banjo fitting on its feeder pipe and has the banjo end to connect to the injector, but no one sells them locally. I suppose I can work with the feeder pipe if I loosen the other end and reposition it. Oh yeah, I also tried to change the PCV valve.
The old one broke apart and its grommet was as hard as bakelite.
The replacement I bought from Autozone broke as I tried to push the hose over its nipple, so I'll be returning it. There are lots of cheap PCV valves out there.
Except for some idiosyncrasies, the Camry used to operate like an appliance, i.e. I could open the hood, put in a load of dirty laundry and return in 45 minutes to a clean wash. If I get past this problem without knowing the cause definitively, I wonder if I'll ever be able to trust it again.
I've just come to accept that I'll be commuting to and from work on my bicycle for the foreseeable future. I should be doing research into which local mechanics are qualified to service this problem, but I haven't yet.
It's not clear to me that the local Toyota dealership would have kept the equipment or spare parts to analyze the cars they sold 23 years ago. Unfortunately, I don't have any 1986 Camry parts cars to swap parts with.

[runnr]

One thing I'm wondering about is how to test if the ECU has a good ground.
In general, I think the electrical system has a good ground, at least, the radio and other accessories work well. Old American cars have a braided ground strap which attacheds to the body, as well as the cable to the block. I'm not sure what this Toyota has, but I can look further at the factory service manual. Dr. J is right that a bad ground can cause all kinds of electrical problems.