My 1990 Camry DX wagon (3s-fe) won't start

[todd_raleigh]

The car has been sitting for 1 1/2 years. Before then it worked just fine. Now, it needs a new battery or a serious charge, but I'm not replacing it until I can get the car to start. In the mean time, I'm jumping it to try to get it to start. The engine cranks very solidly but doesn't start. I replaced the spark plugs. It still didn’t start. I did some online research and decided to check if the fuel pump was working by disconnecting the fuel line on the top side of the fuel filter. I couldn't get the bolt off the fuel filter even with an impact wrench, so I gave up. I then bought a spark plug tester (screw driver type device that you hold against the spark plug wires while trying to crank the engine). The LED light flashed when trying to crank the engine, so I thought I had spark. I couldn't figure out why the car wouldn't start, so I called a mechanic and had the car towed to his garage. I don't think he spent much time, if any, on the car because he didn't charge me anything. He said it needed a new fuel pump ($600) and there was no spark. It would cost about $1000 for the work and he didn't know if the car would even start after that. I had the car towed back to my house.

I bought the online repair manuals. The check engine light would not come on. I found that the 15A EFI fuse was blown, so I replaced that along with the EFI main relay since those connectors seemed a bit corroded. At least the check engine light comes on now. There are no error codes.

It looks like I need to check the circuit opening relay and the ECU with an ohm meter to make sure they are okay. However, I don't know how to take the panels off the center console to get access to this area. Can someone provide instructions on how to get those off?

Any thoughts on my real issues and what could be the problem(s)?

Thanks!

[Wangan]

if it's been sitting for 1.5 years I'm sure it'll start but it sure as hell won't run right. You may even end up with the thing blowing smoke like crazy. I'll be honest mechanically I'm not sure where you should start to look but from what I've experienced over the years. Old Engines that sit for a while then get started tend to burn oil like crazy. I'd recommend picking up a jdm 3s, fe or ge, for cheap and swaping it in there. I'm sure you can get one for less than 500 bucks and it'll have relatively low miles since the camry's in Japan weren't that popular so it's not like here where people drove them forever.

[todd_raleigh]

Update
I still can't get to the circuit opening relay or the ECU. Any ideas on how to remove the center console panels?

I tried once again to get the bolt off the fuel filter and apparently I used too much force. I some how cracked the fuel filter and gas leaked out. I turned the car on and tried to start it but no additional fuel was coming out of the cracked fuel filter, so it looks like the fuel pump isn't working.

At this point, I think it is a central electrical issue given that I no longer have spark, the fuel pump doesn't work, and earlier I had a blown 15A ECU fuse.

Any thoughts?

[Doctor J]

The ECU is located under the ashtray. Unfold the carpet under this area and you will see the stereo-like box --the ECU and small black box on the bracket next to it-the circuit opening [fuel pump] relay. On your car there can be plastic protective cover around the ECU. Access it from eather side.
Starting notes:
-check the spark using the pgrounded spark plug with wide open gap; the LED is not a good thing; I was fooled with it more then once
- jump B+ and Fp test terminals in diag boox to run the pump directly.
-check the cold start injection time switch.

[todd_raleigh]

Update
Thanks, Dr. J.

I do have spark. I checked the ends of the spark plug wires that go into the distributor cap and they all seemed to be corroded on about half of the pin. I reconnected everything and turned the connection about 90 degrees in hope that contact would be made inside the distributor. Anyway, I'm getting spark now. To be safe, I will replace the wires and cap.

Fuel pump: Jumping B+ and Fp in the diag box (with a paper clip) resulted in a spark, a very warm to hot paper clip, and no action on the fuel pump. Bad pump or shorted wiring? How difficult is it for someone who isn't a mechanic to replace the fuel pump? Thoughts of Harry Callahan's famous quote "a man's got to know his limitations" keeps going through my head.

Circuit opening relay: Thanks Dr. J for the location information. I checked all the connections on the relay and they seem good; however, I could not connect 12V to the pins as the repair manual indicates. (how is someone supposed to connect a 12V power source under the dash?) So, I connected the wiring harness back onto the relay and tested them as if they were hot. I couldn't test all combinations that are required, but I get the feeling the relay is good.

Ruptured Fuel Filter: Since I can't get the bolt off the top of the fuel filter, it looks like I will probably have [to replace] the filter, connecting hardware, and lines. Any thoughts? Is this a difficult task? Any instructions on how to do this?

Thanks in advance for any responses!

[Doctor J]

The pump can jam if it tried to pump contaminated gas, or brushes are badly worn [high mileage unit].
the following may help to test the pump;
-fold forward the back seat cushion and remove the carpting under it to expose the fuel sender and fuel pump connectors. The fuel pump connector 2 blue and 2 white/blk wires coming to it. The thicker wires are from circuit opening relay, the thin wires from the test connector. You need to unplug the pump.
Next, attach wires 5 foot long to the turn signal bulb [1056] and plug the lamp instead of the pump into the connector. Use electrical tape to insulate exposed wires; you may need to sloder wires to the lamp. [instead of the lamp you may use 12 v cordless drill]; it uses same type motor as a pump.

Place the lamp in the place so you can see it from the driver's seat and crank the engine.If lamp is on and not flashing the power supply to the pump is adequate and you need to service the pump. Changing it requires removal of the gas tank. You can also use 12 v cordless tool battery to apply power to the pump leads; sometimes reversing ppolarity can unjam the pump but replacement is still recommended. Blue is plus, white/blk is negative [ground]; the pump is also grounded to the metal chassis [bracket-tank- body]

[todd_raleigh]

Thanks again, Dr. J. You have no idea how much this is helping me. Since the car sat for so long and the gas tank was empty, maybe whatever gas was in there got contaminated or turned into something nasty. Tomrrow, I will try to find the fuel sender/fuel pump connectors. If all works, I will try to reverse polarity to unjam the pump. Wish me luck. Good night.

[todd_raleigh]

Update

Fuel pump needs replacing. The power connections work. I tried what you suggested, Dr. J. The system was able to power my 12V drill. On the fuel pump side, I used normal and reversed polarity using the 12V battery from my drill and it did nothing to start the fuel pump. I will order a fuel pump and try to install it. I have a couple questions on that process. How difficult is it to lower/remove the fuel tank? The repair manuals don't say anything about how to lower the fuel tank. Does anyone have step by step instructions? Do I have to disconnect the fuel pump/level connectors and remove the 3 screws on the plate underneath the seat cushions before lowering the fuel tank? Same question for the fuel pump. The manuals don't seem that specific for me. The first thing would be to siphon the gas out of the tank. Then, from what I read on this forum, I need to disconnect the fuel pump and fuel level connectors; remove the plate; then what happens next?

Fuel Filter. I'm drawing a blank here since I ruptured the filter and the top union bolt won't come off. Do I replace the entire connection/hose system from the fuel filter to the regulator(?) or is it possible to get a new union bolt and attach it between existing line and new fuel filter?

I know these are probably basic steps for most, but I appreciate any and all responses. Thanks again. This is a great site. Maybe after I document my approach, someone can learn in the future.

[Doctor J]

The pump is not accessible from inside the car so the tank must be removed. User GregElliott did the fuel pump replacement; [posted on 11-13-2008, 07:06 PM]; and also one more thread by him few days later [my! #$%% "right click" cannot work so I cannot drop the link from this PC]
Let me guide fuel tank removal from memory hopefully someone else will chime in:
· Disconnect battery
· Unplug the sender and the pump wires
· Remove the cover an push rubber grommets with wires out
· Loosen the lug nuts of the left rear wheel; lift the rear of the car and put it on the stands
· Remove left rear wheel
· From the wheel well, loosen the clamps on the fill and vent hoses next to each other
· Apply liquid wrench WD40 or charcoal starter to the hose ends
· Wrap large screwdriver with tape, and use it to dislodge the hoses; remove the vent hose
· Siphon fuel from the tank from the vent hose nipple [1/2 inch i.d.]
{This hose can break, but you may use 94 ford escort hose instead of it, I believe}
· Then use two wrenches 17 and 14 mm{?} to undo pump outlet hose-to fuel line connector ; MOST challenging operation;
· You may try to remove bolts on the filler pipe flange instead of wrestling with the hose
· Separate return and vapor hoses from the tank, remove plastic shield
· Refer to the figure and remove the straps; support the tank and lower it down
· Place the tank on the cardboard sheet and slide it from under the car; proceed with the pump swap.
Can you post a picture of the filter? [need to see what was screwed up]

[todd_raleigh]

Update - Banner Night!

I got the fuel filter off! It was ugly. Very ugly. I ruptured the filter yesterday and gas started coming out - slowly, but coming out. I thought that would have relieved enough pressure to take the union bolt off. No luck. During the day today, when performing the fuel pump tests, some gas was leaking out of the filter. I told my son it was because of the blazing sun and heat, the gas tank was building pressure and the fuel had no where else to go. I had him open the fuel cap and of course the pressure was relieved and the gas stopped dripping from the filter. This evening, for some reason, I tried to unscrew the union bolt and it was very easy to unscrew. I was able to do it by hand. Now comes the ugly part. I needed to unscrew the bottom nut. I used a 14mm open end wrench. By the way, you will need a mirror if you want to see what you are doing. Anyway, I looked in the mirror and I wasn't loosening the nut on the fuel line, I was actually twisting the fuel line. I started to freak out. I thought I might have ruptured the fuel line. I twisted it back to the original position and luckily I didn't rupture it. There is a place on the bottom of the fuel filter to put a 19mm wrench to use as leverage to loosen the 14mm nut. That was difficult as well, but it was successful after a long battle.

Thanks, Dr.J yet again - Those fuel tank instructions are what I need. I will look for Greg's posts and publish the links here. Maybe after I'm done, we can turn this into a "How to" and "What not to do" fuel filter/fuel pump/gas tank FAQ.

[Doctor J]

Fixed the link:Electric/Fuel Questions
and the thread after it shows the fuel pump removal from bracket

[todd_raleigh]

Update

Parts Ordered. I ordered the fuel pump, spark plug wires, coil and distributor cap. Saved big $$$ going online (rockauto.com) vs local auto parts store. Total price was $135 including 2 business day shipping.

Lowering the fuel tank. I'll probably do that this weekend and extract the fuel pump. Since the car sat for 1 1/2 years, are there any indicators I should look for as far as needing to clean the fuel tank, blow out the fuel line, etc?

Thinking ahead. The car sat for such a long time. Before attempting to start it again, I'm going to replace the engine oil/filter, flush the radiator, and check the brakes. Any other fluid replacements or inspections I should do before attempting to start the car again? Once the car starts and can move (and stop), I'll take it to a mechanic for a thorough mechanical and safety inspection.

Next post. I'll post any issues or questions that may come up during the fuel tank lowering/fuel pump extraction. After that, it may be a week or two before my next post, based upon the amount of time I have to install the new fuel pump and perform the other tasks.

Thanks again for you help, Dr.J. I am so grateful.

[Doctor J]

Rear brake cylinders can leak due to the internal rust; if you can clean the bores you can use rebuild kit otherwise new wheel cylinders may be required. The brake shoes with red painted hardware [Raybestos PG tend to crack]
Put some penetrating oil on the lower steering joint above rack and pinion
DO not use chemical cleaners in the cooling system, this may spurt corrosion of aluminum head.
Use fill-drive-drain-fill procedure instead and clean water
On the gas tank check for rust accumulation at the boom inside of it
To prevent fire hazard do not drag the tank on the concrete place on the cardboard first
Use new gasket for the pump flange

[todd_raleigh]

Update

The world is a much better place knowing that I'm not a mechanic. I broke off one of the fuel pump terminal posts while trying to screw on one of the nuts. There isn't enough post or thread on the terminal to screw on the nut. Can I solder the wire to the terminal post or is there some sort of terminal cap that I could buy which I could crimp on to the post?

I swear to God this car is going to blow up when I try to start it.

[Doctor J]

You can solder the wire but prior to that,
use hack saw blade and cut the slot in the post [similar to the slot for the flat screwdriver in the set screw but about 1.5 mm (0.060") wide, 2.5 mm 0.10" deep];
use fine grade rosin core electronic solder to pre-tin the post
then place wire in the slot and sloder it in.
This should work.