Turbocharging a 5s

[stanno]

i was looking at this kit and noticed... there's no intercooler in the kit nor do i see piping leading to one... i started to think that once ure running low boost (under 7 or 8psi) like u would on a stock 5s there wouldnt neccessarily be need for one ... am i wrong..???

-stanno

[Jimnist]

AFIAK, supers don't use intercoolers, only turbo's.

A turbo uses an intercooler as the turbo itself is mounted on the exhaust manifold, spinning a turbine which is connected to another turbine that sucks in fresh air. The heat from the exhaust gases is transferred to the turbo and then to the charged air. Hot air= less dense air, so the intercooler cools the air.

With the super, it's driven off the crank through a belt, mounted just on top of the intake manifold. It doesn't really need cooling as the air it draws is not subjected to lots of heat, like the charged air from a turbo.

[stanno]

i'm totally sorry... here's the turbo kit i was looking at...

http://meisners.net/camry/Turbo%20In...tion/index.htm click on Burien Toyota Turbocharger kit COLOR installation document

[white90dx]

Originally Posted by Jimnist

AFIAK, supers don't use intercoolers, only turbo's.

A turbo uses an intercooler as the turbo itself is mounted on the exhaust manifold, spinning a turbine which is connected to another turbine that sucks in fresh air. The heat from the exhaust gases is transferred to the turbo and then to the charged air. Hot air= less dense air, so the intercooler cools the air.

With the super, it's driven off the crank through a belt, mounted just on top of the intake manifold. It doesn't really need cooling as the air it draws is not subjected to lots of heat, like the charged air from a turbo.

The reasons you list have very little to do with whether a turbocharger or supercharger system 'needs' an intercooler.

Whenever any gas is compressed, it gets hotter by a known amount (remember those ideal gas laws from physics?). Also, any compressor has some level of inefficiency that adds extra heat beyond what would be added by an ideal compressor. Almost zero heat is added due to the air actually coming in contact with a hot compressor cover/blades - its not there for very long! (tiny fractions of a second)

An intercooler can be added to any forced-induction application to bring the compressed air temperature down to create denser and cooler air. Denser air makes more power (more air molecules in the same volume) and cooler air temps keep detonation away and allow for more ignition timing (more power!).

For low pressure turbo or supercharger applications, often an intercooler is not necessary and the cost and complexity savings are worth leaving it out for some people...

-Charlie

[stanno]

Originally Posted by white90dx

The reasons you list have very little to do with whether a
For low pressure turbo or supercharger applications, often an intercooler is not necessary and the cost and complexity savings are worth leaving it out for some people...

-Charlie

just using the knowledge u just gave... that would be because the low psi level (less air to compress) would generate less heat... so colder plugs and maybe an oil cooler would suffice... am i correct...?

okay... say i want to improve efficiency of the engine & turbo system by adding an intercooler... where are the easiest places to mount it... i was taking a gander in my gen 2 recently and honestly i dont see where i'd place it in the front... (in between the radiator and front bumper)... without doing away with my a/c lines at least... which i really would love to keep... i guess tmic would be better.....? but i'd have to cut the bonnet to accommodate it... but i guess that would be easier than cutting spots to run pipings...

[white90dx]

Originally Posted by stanno

just using the knowledge u just gave... that would be because the low psi level (less air to compress) would generate less heat... so colder plugs and maybe an oil cooler would suffice... am i correct...?

okay... say i want to improve efficiency of the engine & turbo system by adding an intercooler... where are the easiest places to mount it... i was taking a gander in my gen 2 recently and honestly i dont see where i'd place it in the front... (in between the radiator and front bumper)... without doing away with my a/c lines at least... which i really would love to keep... i guess tmic would be better.....? but i'd have to cut the bonnet to accommodate it... but i guess that would be easier than cutting spots to run pipings...

Its not the fact that less air is getting compressed, its that the air is less compressed that leads to a lower compressor output temperature. Hopefully the difference between those two things is clear.

I ran my 3s-fe at 7psi non-intercooled for a while with no problems.

Colder-range spark plugs don't make your motor run cooler, they make the electrodes on the plugs run cooler. The cooler plugs are then less likely to lead to pre-ignition or excessive wear on the plugs. Too cold of a heat range on the plugs leads to build-up on the plugs and poor running.

An oil cooler is helpfull for motor longevity, but will also not help handle more power from a turbo system. It will only help handle long runs at high power (track days, hard canyon driving, etc.)

With the appropriate amount of cutting, you should be able to fit a 2.5" or 3" thick intercooler core in the front of the car while keeping your A/C. That's my plan for when I move the 3s-gte over to my Alltrac Camry. There will be lots of cutting involved, even with the JDM bumper that has more clearance.

-Charlie

[stanno]

Originally Posted by white90dx

Its not the fact that less air is getting compressed, its that the air is less compressed that leads to a lower compressor output temperature. Hopefully the difference between those two things is clear.

I ran my 3s-fe at 7psi non-intercooled for a while with no problems.

Colder-range spark plugs don't make your motor run cooler, they make the electrodes on the plugs run cooler. The cooler plugs are then less likely to lead to pre-ignition or excessive wear on the plugs. Too cold of a heat range on the plugs leads to build-up on the plugs and poor running.

An oil cooler is helpfull for motor longevity, but will also not help handle more power from a turbo system. It will only help handle long runs at high power (track days, hard canyon driving, etc.)

With the appropriate amount of cutting, you should be able to fit a 2.5" or 3" thick intercooler core in the front of the car while keeping your A/C. That's my plan for when I move the 3s-gte over to my Alltrac Camry. There will be lots of cutting involved, even with the JDM bumper that has more clearance.

-Charlie

ok i get that... question tho... when u were running ur 3s on that 7psi... how was the fuel consumption when driving off boost ... if you did take note of it that is... reason i ask is cuz a long time ago, i saw a video of a technician saying that when a turbocharged engine is opeerated off boost... the turbo atomizes the air/fuel mixture giving it even better fuel efficiency than if it were n/a.... can u remember...?

another question... is the 5s oil cooler efficient enuff ... i mean it was really designed for the engine naturally aspirated... if the engine was turbocharged... would it make more sense to upgrade to a better toyota oil cooler... like say from another engine...?

[white90dx]

Originally Posted by stanno

ok i get that... question tho... when u were running ur 3s on that 7psi... how was the fuel consumption when driving off boost ... if you did take note of it that is... reason i ask is cuz a long time ago, i saw a video of a technician saying that when a turbocharged engine is opeerated off boost... the turbo atomizes the air/fuel mixture giving it even better fuel efficiency than if it were n/a.... can u remember...?

another question... is the 5s oil cooler efficient enuff ... i mean it was really designed for the engine naturally aspirated... if the engine was turbocharged... would it make more sense to upgrade to a better toyota oil cooler... like say from another engine...?

I got around 30mpg on the turbo 3s-fe with a 5-speed. That's probably similar to what I would have gotten without it... I never owned that particular car before the turbo though, so I can't say. My original 3s-fe 5-speed (different car) would get 32mpg or so in similar driving, but it had fewer miles and the motor was in better shape.

Any modern car (the Camry included) has a fair amount of headroom in the cooling system. Don't feel that it is necessary to add any extra cooling until you find you have a problem. Make sure everything is in good shape though (clean radiator, new coolant, thermostat, radiator cap, etc.).

I ran a 5s-fe oil cooler on my turbo 3s-fe, but that was only because I got it for a good price. Keep in mind that the 5s-fe oil cooler transfers the heat to the coolant, which then needs to be removed by the radiator - the radiator still does the work of removing the heat from the motor, but the oil just runs cooler.

-Charlie

[stanno]

Originally Posted by white90dx

I got around 30mpg on the turbo 3s-fe with a 5-speed. That's probably similar to what I would have gotten without it... I never owned that particular car before the turbo though, so I can't say. My original 3s-fe 5-speed (different car) would get 32mpg or so in similar driving, but it had fewer miles and the motor was in better shape.

Any modern car (the Camry included) has a fair amount of headroom in the cooling system. Don't feel that it is necessary to add any extra cooling until you find you have a problem. Make sure everything is in good shape though (clean radiator, new coolant, thermostat, radiator cap, etc.).

I ran a 5s-fe oil cooler on my turbo 3s-fe, but that was only because I got it for a good price. Keep in mind that the 5s-fe oil cooler transfers the heat to the coolant, which then needs to be removed by the radiator - the radiator still does the work of removing the heat from the motor, but the oil just runs cooler.

-Charlie

that's not bad at all... oh almost forgot one important question ....will i need to change the vacuum sensor on the firewall that reads manifold vacuum to maybe one that reads pressure... would one from a 3s-gte work...?

[white90dx]

Originally Posted by stanno

that's not bad at all... oh almost forgot one important question ....will i need to change the vacuum sensor on the firewall that reads manifold vacuum to maybe one that reads pressure... would one from a 3s-gte work...?

You don't have a MAP sensor on your car unless you have a 5s-fe or a late model (late '90s) 3s-fe.

-Charlie

[stanno]

Originally Posted by white90dx

You don't have a MAP sensor on your car unless you have a 5s-fe or a late model (late '90s) 3s-fe.

-Charlie

hmmm...well... i dont have an afm... i've pulled down the intake piping many times and never seen any flap or anything resembling a toyota afm... all's that is there is the air temp sensor... there's a device on the fire wall with a hose leading from it to the intake manifold and an electrical connector that leads into the engine harness... it has "denso vacuum sensor" written on it... i thought that was the map sensor... am i wrong..?

[white90dx]

Originally Posted by stanno

hmmm...well... i dont have an afm... i've pulled down the intake piping many times and never seen any flap or anything resembling a toyota afm... all's that is there is the air temp sensor... there's a device on the fire wall with a hose leading from it to the intake manifold and an electrical connector that leads into the engine harness... it has "denso vacuum sensor" written on it... i thought that was the map sensor... am i wrong..?

That is a MAP sensor then... Can you post detail pics of your engine bay?

-Charlie

[stanno]

the only camera i have access too is on my phone... which is broken... i feel kinda bad that i haven't posted any pics of the ride since i got it... but it due to my lack of access to a camera... i'll try to borrow one tomorrow and see what i can do...

btw... having a map sensor is a good thing right...? i mean... it wont hinder a 5s swap... will it ..?

[white90dx]

Originally Posted by stanno

the only camera i have access too is on my phone... which is broken... i feel kinda bad that i haven't posted any pics of the ride since i got it... but it due to my lack of access to a camera... i'll try to borrow one tomorrow and see what i can do...

btw... having a map sensor is a good thing right...? i mean... it wont hinder a 5s swap... will it ..?

Actually, its worse for the swap. Because the ECU has no direct way of knowing how much air is going into the motor, the change in displacement and effective volumetric efficiency of the motor will cause problems. If you had an AFM version of the motor, it would automatically adjust for the extra air going into the motor.

-Charlie

[stanno]

Originally Posted by white90dx

Actually, its worse for the swap. Because the ECU has no direct way of knowing how much air is going into the motor, the change in displacement and effective volumetric efficiency of the motor will cause problems. If you had an AFM version of the motor, it would automatically adjust for the extra air going into the motor.

-Charlie

so couldn't bigger injectors solve that problem.. to avoid leaning out on the mixture...? or is the only solution to this problem a 5s ecu...? since it would already have the correct fuel maps etc. ...? that is to say, if it can plug into a 3s harness....