1988 Trouble in paradice.

[TUBEJUNKE]

I got the deal of the century on my Stepmother's then Grandmother's Camry. It never gave either of them a bit of trouble, other than routine maintenance. My Grandmother GAVE me the car! So far, so good, only 116k mi. Well, I went to PA to pick it up and the day I was to drive it home it started to run very poorly, but never quit. This began about 50 miles out of the 500mile trip home. I turned around and went back as I could see no way to fathom making the trip like this.

I got back to point A and got a set of Autolite plugs from Napa. That helped a bit, as the old AC's were pretty worn. Still the car stumbled and had very little power. I started pulling wires and noticed that one of the aftermarket wires was arching through the side of the boot down inside the head. At the time the only choice of a wreset puchase was at Autozone. We got the Duralast wires and the problem was gone. The car ran great from that time (early Sept.) until last week.

One day shortly upon leaving home, the car started to jerk and stumble. Especially from dead still. I headed home and the problem was gone before I could get home. The car ran fine for a day or two and then the whole thing happened again, only it seemed worse. I barely made it home, but within a few miles of home, once again, the car ran well. I changed the fuel filter. Again, the car ran well. The next day I went to take it for a drive and it was hard to start. It would only hit a lick or two as soon as I let off the starter. Finally it started but I could tell that the once intermittent problem was now starting in my driveway. The car will idle fine but it you goose the thottle, it just gasps and trys to die, then idles again. I did this once and heard a knock. New wires, new plugs, new fuel filter, BLUE spark. I thought perhaps it was the air meter as I got what I considered to be jumpy resistance readings off of the internal potentiometer. I got lucky and found a friend with a spare from a 'known running when parked' junker. Switched it out, same problem although it did start easier this time. I think that hard start the previous night was from air trapped in the cold start injector line (just a theory).

Anyhow, I am lost. I have worked around cars for years, so I'm not a beginner; but this is my first Toyota. I don't have certain tools that a pro would have, or a shop, so my situation is a bit limited, as is my cash flow right now. I don't have a fuel pressure tester, a compression tester, or a vacuum gauge. The car almost acts as if the valve timing could be off. I don't know if the belt has ever been changed, but due to the fact that it was intermittently running great, I sort of ruled out the belt for now, although if it hasn't been changed I know it needs it soon.

Some people have told me that it won't run on any plugs but Nipondenso or NGK. Well, it ran fine for the 500 mile trip, and then some on Autolites. The're still firing. Could they somehow still be the problem? I can't see it. I mean a plug fires, or it misfires. Some say don't use Duralast wires. They are not arching and seem to be firing every cylinder. I do want to do a resistance check on them just for good measure. Can someone give me the spec on that. Anyway, since the car has INTERMITTENTLY ran like new I was hoping that this would be something simple. Now I am starting to wonder.

I want to add that the last time I was brave enough to drive the car that it would cruise at highway speed with no trouble. Just getting to highway speed was the trouble. I thought I was going to lose her at the stoplight. She stumbled her way up to speed and ended up fine all the way home. Also for the record, when I changed the fuel filter I ran some gas in a bottle and it was not full of water, which is most folks first idea when things like this happen. After changing the fuel filter, on the first crank the engine made a loud ticking sound, then slowly went away to a smooth idle. I have no idea what that was unless it was the air hammering its way through the system.

I know this is long winded, but I am trying to relay all of the details so that someone may be able to make sense of it all. I see a lot of similar problems listed in this forum. I don't think my coil is bad because I have a good blue spark and a smooth idle. Last, if I run the throttle up slowly, the engine will rev; but on a sudden open throttle, again, it falls flat on its face.

Please help!!

[CJCride]

Bet there is condensation/water in the fuel. Use a water dispersant in the fuel, fuel line cleaner should help too.

[Doctor J]

check for the trouble codes
make sure there is no vacuum leals

[Mike Gerber]

"I want to add that the last time I was brave enough to drive the car that it would cruise at highway speed with no trouble. Just getting to highway speed was the trouble."

Most missfiring under load (such as when accelerating) is caused by faulty ignition system components. If the plug wires you got from Autozone are a year old, they would be my first suspect. I have seen cheap aftermarket wires fail in as little as 1 year or 20,000 miles. I would test them first with a digital volt/ohmeter. If you have a warranty from Autozone I would just take them back and get a new set. Other suspects are the distributor cap and rotor, then the coil. These cars are notorious for the coil going out as they rack up a lot of miles on them (you don't say how many miles on the car). I would check the specs on the coil and also inspect it for cracks. You will need a dvm again and the specs from any manual to check the coil. There are Toyota factory service manuals stickied at the top of the Camry forum over at AutomotiveForums.com, that are available for free downloading. Go there and download the generation 2 manual. Then go to the ignition system section for your engine for the specs on the coil.

Mike

[TUBEJUNKE]

I mentioned early in my post that the car only has 115,000mi. on it. The Autozone wires are only two months old, and because they are not the normal 'wireset', but rather cap and wire combo, there is no warranty. Possibly a 90 day return.

Don't you have to remove the distributor to get to the coil? Also, does anyone know the proper resistance of the wires?

Could the Auolite plugs have anything to do with it? They are not fouled, but I wonnder if they can misfire under a load.

[Mike Gerber]

"I mentioned early in my post that the car only has 115,000mi. on it."

Sorry, I missed that.

"Don't you have to remove the distributor to get to the coil? Also, does anyone know the proper resistance of the wires?"

You don't have to remove the distributor to test the coil. It can be done with it still on the car. As far as the resistance for the plug wires, there should be a spec in the ignition section of the manual I referenced above.

Mike

[white90dx]

I can almost guarantee the main cause is the ignition coil... get that baby replaced! Even at 115k miles, it is 20 years old!

When you have the money/time/space, go back to the original NGK or Denso spark plugs and Toyota wires/cap and rotor. I run copper core Denso spark plugs with great results (on the 3s-fe, 3s-gte and my Subaru motor).

Often, the cracked/bad ignition coil will be worse with wet/rainy weather. Have you noticed any correlation?

-Charlie

[TUBEJUNKE]

Well, today I gathered the old plugs that I had pulled out up in PA which were AC, but had been in the car with good performance for a number of years. I removed the Autolites and put in the old plugs. The car started and ran like a new one. Last night it ran so bad I wouldn't even take it out of the driveway. Change the plugs to worn out AC's and BAM! If that was the problem I'm OK with it, but I'll have to drive it a lot without fail before I am sure, AND FEEL SAFE AGAIN.

As far as weather, we have had some rain, but the problem has shown up in dry weather and wet weather. If this upswing in luck turns back down I'll go for the coil. Wish me luck!

Oh, I was going to try to retrieve any stored codes in the ECM. All info says to jump between the TE1 and the E1 at the dignostic link. My dignostic link does not have a "TE1." I think there is a TE, but no TE1. I certainly dont want to burn up anything. The check engine light is not on during operation so perhaps there are no codes stored. Still I would like to be capable of checking.

[white90dx]

The "T" "TE" and "TE1" connections all do the same thing - they are the same connection that may just be labeled differently in the diagnostics box. E1 is the ground connection that tells the computer to run in diagnostics mode (ok, "test' mode, thus the T or TE name of the pin).

There is a chance that codes are stored even if the check engine light is on, but its unlikely.

Go get yourself an $8 set of NGK coppers (regular or v-power) and put those in. Change 'em every 10k-15k miles and you'll be all good for plugs.

-Charlie

[TUBEJUNKE]

Thanks everyone, lots of good ideas here, and WAY more participation than I get on my vintage electronics forum at another site. Well, I have rain here in VA. I'll have to try it out in the wet weather to see if that causes the problem to resurface.

By the way, I was talking to my neighbor who has worked on cars longer than I have been alive and he told me about a situation where a Mercury Topaz ran good on 'non-recommended' plugs for a while; but later almost left him stranded. He changed them out, and the problem never came back. There may be something to only running certain plugs in certain type vehicles. I sold parts for ten years and always thought it was hogwash, and I hated it when someone would try to return slightly used plugs claiming that the car would not run right with them. I always figured that it was something else causing the problem and the plugs were just the easiest thing to blame.

Thanks again everyone!! I'll keep updating......

[Doctor J]

Well I have autolite plugs in my camry and do not like the gaskets they are using; when the car is not fully warmed up there is some sort of hesitation on acceleration; I am going to switch back to NGK soon.
Slightly off topic: I found good used control arms with URETHANe bushings and I will try them on my car to see if I have had wrong opinion about them.

[TUBEJUNKE]

Originally Posted by Doctor J

Well I have autolite plugs in my camry and do not like the gaskets they are using; when the car is not fully warmed up there is some sort of hesitation on acceleration; I am going to switch back to NGK soon.

Yeah, the gaskets fall off when you pull them out; which means that it is laying down in the bottom of hole in the valve cover. This is one of the MANY times one of those telescopic magnets you can pick up in a parts store for a buck or two proves its worth.

We got a frog choker tonight, so tomorrow I'll have more info on how or if the wet weather effects mine; and hopefully the news that the Autolite plugs are not do'able in a Toyota. I've got my fingers crossed. I think grannys' ol Camry CAN be a tough, reliable car. It is a joy to drive. I would have taken the car anywhere before all this mess started. Also, I started going out on small day trips just to drive the car; thats how much I liked driving it. Unfortunatly, it takes me a while to feel right in a car that has, or almost has left me stranded. Especially when the weather gets cold. You DONT want to be stranded miles out in the south central foothills of Virginia! K.W.I.M.?

[TUBEJUNKE]

I drove the Camry today for running some errands, so this included rural routes through the foothills, city driving, and highway driving. The car ran absolutely flawlessly. I just hope it sticks! Remember, this problem started off intermittently. However, the problem slowly progressed to be rather frequent, if not most of the time.

I take out Autolites and stick in worn out AC's and so far the problem goes away. Then someone else posted saying that they had Autolites AND hesitation or whatnot. Folks it looks like Autolite may be poison to a Toyota.

I will never understand the phenomenon of engines, or entire brands (Toyota, Honda ect..) that supposedly only perform properly with one specific brand of spark plug (Denso, NGK). It just doesent make sense that different manufacturers version of the same application will not work, or work well.

[TUBEJUNKE]

Well, so much for the spark plug theory. This problem is so intermittent that I keep doing things and thinking that the problem is gone, then it comes back. I mean the car has gone from barely able to pull out of the driveway to running like new overnight. Now I have started believing in what a lot of people say was problematic anyway; the coil.

The last time I drove the car it was dry, and it ran great. Tonight it was raining,a nd has been raining for a couple of days. Before I got a mile down the road the car lost almost all acceleration capability on the low end, but once you got it moving it was not nearly as bad; it idled well.

I was determined, or perhaps stupid, enough to raise the hood and run my hand all around the coil part of the distributor cap to see if I would get a jolt. Nothing there, so I grabbed an old plug and pulled a wire, hooked it to it, and started it up. At idle I saw what looked like a good, blue spark. However, I noticed that as I raised the idle speed I would see intermittent orange spark. I'm going to check the Duralast wireset next for proper resistance. The wires are only 2 months old and theres no crossfiring like I have seen on super cheap wires.

Other than the wires, I think the coil could be it since twice now it has shown its self during wet weather. I did a resistance check on the coil and there is one side that has a spec of approximately a half an ohm. Mine measured almost a whole ohm. Can tenths of an ohm cause noticeable performance issues? The other winding checked OK.....

Gosh I can't wait until I beat this monster. I loved driving this car. Now I'm scared of it!

[Doctor J]

The resistance check is not as critical as the insulation check, if it has microcracks the spark can jump to the distributor chaft, leaving gray marks on the insulation under reluctor teeth. The proper way to test the coil s insulation to use the Megger on old one and compare reading to the new coil insulation. The Toyota engineers missed that test, unfortunately.