E10 & My Camry

[stanno]

The government of Jamaica recently ceased all production of regular fuel containing MTBE's and introduced Ethanol blended fuel (10% of course) in the usual 87 octane and 90 octane. Ever since they brought this into effect, People have been complaining left right and center about how it has been damaging engines, fuel systems, and all different manner of components. I've started using it for a while now, and I have to say i notice no negative effects, other than a minute drop in engine response and the rate of consumption. Despite removing the negative battery cable for about 20 mins to reset my ECU, it still seems to burn off much faster than the regular gas did. A full tank usually could've lasted me 2 weeks,(work and home and weekend driving). Now, it's just a little past 1 weeks worth. I think alot of states in the US have already started using it, but i'm not sure on the facts. Is there any precautions i can take to ensure this gasahol doesn't have my engine commit suicide? There used to be a fuel additive called ''fuel activator'' here, but they have conveniently stopped manufacturing it since the release of the E10. There is however a Marine store here, that sells a fuel stabilizer product called ''STA-BIL'' but they only carry the version of it made for Marine Engines. The guy at the store said that i can use it in my car, just use less than specified on the container (which was something like 1 oz to 10 gallons of fuel) What are your opinions/ advice on this?

[white90dx]

First, if you are burning trough the tank in less than a few months, you don't need any sta-bil or other fuel stabilizing products. Those are designed to keep fuel in storage for long periods of time (over winter or gas in storage tanks/cans, etc.).

As for the E10 - all fuel components since the early 80's have been designed to handle reasonable ethanol content (I think it was up to 30% or something). It will not damage your car in any way to run the fuel.

You should notice a slight drop in fuel economy (5%-10%) but otherwise that's it. Its a small price to pay for avoiding MTBE which ruins groundwater (about 10% of the wells in California are unusable because of the stuff!).

Do a real check of your gas mileage. Fill up the tank, reset the trip odometer and drive through most of the tank. Fill up again to the top (the same way you filled it originally) and divide the miles traveled by the fuel used.... (miles per gallon!) Let us know what you get.

Saying that you use a full tank a week means nothing... I often use 2 tanks in one day on long trips, but my mileage goes up. And when I don't drive my WRX for a while or only on short trips, it lasts a month or two but the mileage goes down.

-Charlie

[stanno]

Originally Posted by white90dx

First, if you are burning trough the tank in less than a few months, you don't need any sta-bil or other fuel stabilizing products. Those are designed to keep fuel in storage for long periods of time (over winter or gas in storage tanks/cans, etc.).

As for the E10 - all fuel components since the early 80's have been designed to handle reasonable ethanol content (I think it was up to 30% or something). It will not damage your car in any way to run the fuel.

You should notice a slight drop in fuel economy (5%-10%) but otherwise that's it. Its a small price to pay for avoiding MTBE which ruins groundwater (about 10% of the wells in California are unusable because of the stuff!).

Do a real check of your gas mileage. Fill up the tank, reset the trip odometer and drive through most of the tank. Fill up again to the top (the same way you filled it originally) and divide the miles traveled by the fuel used.... (miles per gallon!) Let us know what you get.

Saying that you use a full tank a week means nothing... I often use 2 tanks in one day on long trips, but my mileage goes up. And when I don't drive my WRX for a while or only on short trips, it lasts a month or two but the mileage goes down.

-Charlie

Ok, Well Noted. However, a friend bought the STA-BIL product, and i read on the back label that it gives the ethanol fuel back that potency to make more power as the petrol containing MTBE's used to make.

Actually, before fuel activator went totally extinct, my friend who is also a mechanic added a little to his full tank of E10 and said he noticed an increase in power. So altho preventing phase seperation is one of the first listed features of the product, I don't think it's just for Fuel that will be in storage for extended periods of time.

The refinery here published information in the local paper saying that most vehicles, post 1988 should be able to use the blend safely, although they also recommended a servicing of the fuel system (fuel filter etc) before using it.

I know for sure it burns off faster, and i'm not the only one to have said it, perhaps half the population cries about having to visit the pump far more frequently. But none-the-less, I will carry out the test as soon as i replace my speedometer cable.

Thanks
stan

[stanno]

I do have a friend with a Suzuki Alto who, since he started the use of E10, his engine has been detonating very frequently. I made a suggestion to him which he did, which was to reset his ECU. Since he did this, it subsided notably. But is still present. He's the one who bought the STA-BIL product. But hasn't added it as yet. He said he would back some of the ignition timing off to stop the pinging. Do you think this is the best thing for him to do? (considering that it may have been advanced and he bought it like that). He said he was gonna check the base timing first though.

My younger brother on the other hand, has far worse problems. Almost exactly after he started using gasahol, his engine started sputtering quite badly. I took a look at it and i realised he was running very rich. After i did some research i discovered that carburetor engines require re-adjustment when switching to blended fuel. However it was too late for him. His engine's head gasket burned in between cylinders # 3 & 4. So his engine was in fact only running on two cylinders. Somehow i think the culprit was E10. My reason for thinking this; his car was running fine before he started using it, Though i could be wrong.

[oscaryu1]

Ok, Well Noted. However, a friend bought the STA-BIL product, and i read on the back label that it gives the ethanol fuel back that potency to make more power as the petrol containing MTBE's used to make.

Guessing Stabil adds MTBE's back into the fuel?

[Jimnist]

I tried E10 once. Made the Cam run like crap - fuel eco dropped by 1/3-1/2, rpms picked up a lot slower, and i had less power. Switched back to regular unleaded and all problems solved.

Don't you have any alternatives? What about sports cars that require premium unleaded fuel?

[DM89]

Stabil does not add MTBE's back into the fuel. It is a separate type of chemical all together. MTBE's raise the octane value of the fuel. Ethanol also raises octane value, this is why ethanol can replace MTBE's in fuel. Stabil is simply a fuel stabilizer, with prolonged use it will increase deposits in the engine which can cause detonation and reduced fuel economy.

As far as E10 hurting a Camry engine, I have an 89 with 150,000 miles on the original motor and it has been ran on E10 since i bought it with 83,000 miles on it. I have not had any problems with my fuel system. Lower mpg's is just something you can't avoid with E10. If you want to use an additive to improve mpg's you may want to use Toulene (same stuff used in over the counter fuel system cleaners) I have never used it so i can't give you any info, but it should be easy enough to look up online.

[stanno]

Originally Posted by DM89

Stabil does not add MTBE's back into the fuel. It is a separate type of chemical all together. MTBE's raise the octane value of the fuel. Ethanol also raises octane value, this is why ethanol can replace MTBE's in fuel. Stabil is simply a fuel stabilizer, with prolonged use it will increase deposits in the engine which can cause detonation and reduced fuel economy.

As far as E10 hurting a Camry engine, I have an 89 with 150,000 miles on the original motor and it has been ran on E10 since i bought it with 83,000 miles on it. I have not had any problems with my fuel system. Lower mpg's is just something you can't avoid with E10. If you want to use an additive to improve mpg's you may want to use Toulene (same stuff used in over the counter fuel system cleaners) I have never used it so i can't give you any info, but it should be easy enough to look up online.

Cool! I have researched octane boosters a bit, and one thing was clear, Not to use any brands containing alcohol when adding to gasahol. But that is proving to be difficult to find here on the gas station shelves as most of the octane boosters they stock have alcohol. But i'm glad you brought toluene up, I'm gonna check the automotive establishments to see what types they stock, if any. & Also if just toluene can be purchased and where.

-stan

[stanno]

Originally Posted by Jimnist

I tried E10 once. Made the Cam run like crap - fuel eco dropped by 1/3-1/2, rpms picked up a lot slower, and i had less power. Switched back to regular unleaded and all problems solved.

Don't you have any alternatives? What about sports cars that require premium unleaded fuel?

As you mentioned that, I have a couple friends with ''performance built'' engines, and they're either suffering from engine problems, or replacing an engine now. The ones suffering have mostly lack of power, poor fuel economy, & the biggest of them all... detonation. The general public made somewhat an outcry when their regular fuel was just phased out and E10 shoved down everyone's throat, or tank lol. I know it's for a greater good, but they could've handled it better in my opinion.

[DM89]

Toluene can be purchased at just about any hardware store. I think it's next to the paint thinner.

[stanno]

Originally Posted by DM89

Toluene can be purchased at just about any hardware store. I think it's next to the paint thinner.

Ok Nice! I have just a few more questions.

#1 - How should i handle toluene? Do i need gloves, a gas mask or anything of such, cuz i heard it's like paint thinner on steroids.

#2 - Toluene is said to be as corrosive as ethanol, Is it safe to use it (a safe amt of course) everytime i fill up?

#3 - I've used mothballs in my past owned cars before, as in, i'd put say 4 balls to 20liters of petrol (not E10) and left it overnight & i saw a very huge difference in performance, was as if the engine went into hulk race mode. Will i get that same effect if i were to add it to E10 fuel? (Just curious LOL)

[white90dx]

I have run my WRX mostly on E10 fuel (CA blend 76 brand 91 octane) since it was new. It gets just about the same mileage as the old (now unavailable) MTBE oxygenated gas, but actually drives better. I believe ethanol works better for high temp / pressure ignition based on what I have seen.

Every car will react a bit differently though. The 3s-fe doesn't have a knock sensor to add or remove timing based on detonation, so that means it will not be easily able to adjust for the different burn properties of the fuel. It also is meant to run on low-octane fuel.

E85 is loved in the performance community. It acts like race fuel in high performance motors, but is cheaper than 91/93 octane fuel! Many guys have been running it for a few years now with no noticable problems with their fuel systems - you just have to make sure to re-tune your car for the lower energy density of the fuel.

I'm surprised that the ethanol blended gas is causing detonation. It really sounds like the refinery took the opportunity to make a lower quality product when the changeover happened... Ethanol blended fuel shouldn't be causing problems other than lower mileage (and then, only by a few percent with such a low amount blended into the fuel)

-Charlie

[stanno]

Originally Posted by white90dx

I have run my WRX mostly on E10 fuel (CA blend 76 brand 91 octane) since it was new. It gets just about the same mileage as the old (now unavailable) MTBE oxygenated gas, but actually drives better. I believe ethanol works better for high temp / pressure ignition based on what I have seen.

Every car will react a bit differently though. The 3s-fe doesn't have a knock sensor to add or remove timing based on detonation, so that means it will not be easily able to adjust for the different burn properties of the fuel. It also is meant to run on low-octane fuel.

E85 is loved in the performance community. It acts like race fuel in high performance motors, but is cheaper than 91/93 octane fuel! Many guys have been running it for a few years now with no noticable problems with their fuel systems - you just have to make sure to re-tune your car for the lower energy density of the fuel.

I'm surprised that the ethanol blended gas is causing detonation. It really sounds like the refinery took the opportunity to make a lower quality product when the changeover happened... Ethanol blended fuel shouldn't be causing problems other than lower mileage (and then, only by a few percent with such a low amount blended into the fuel)

-Charlie

It seems they really did make a low quality batch of it. There are now rumors circulating that a new batch is to be released, this one having a rating of 95octane ( i guess boosted from 90 with the ethanol, no clue what they really used though as they haven't officially came out and said it) I was recently listening to a radio program going around talking to people about how they feel about the new type of petrol, and the second highest complaint was that it makes the engine sluggish/ underpowered/ lazy.

A friend has a modified Subaru WRX, and since using E10, his car began detonating and before he was able to retune it, it blew a hole through one of his pistons. So this leads me to really wonder if they are mixing this thing correctly. I was wondering if it's the humid climate that we're in, but i'm not sure if Jamaica is that humid. I've read about alcohol injection before and it's suppose to help resist detonation. In fact, i believe another name for it is Anti-Detonate Injection. Something is definitely wrong.