1st & 2nd Generation (1983–1986 & 1987-1991)Toyota Camry Discussion for years: 1983-1986 & 1987-1991.
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I've done my due diligence, and I can't seem to search out my answer, so I'll make my first post, and ask out loud!
My girlie went to the store the other day, and when she got in the car to come home, the clutch would not disengage. She called me up, and I came over with a fresh bottle of DOT3, filled up the clutch master cylinder reservoir (How did I know that? I was her hero!), and she limped it home, where we performed a bleeding. The test drive revealed that all was well, and we cracked open a coldie.
Next day, she went out on a morning errand, and all was well until she started for home when, once again, the clutch would not disengage. I came over, and the fluid level was where it was supposed to be, so this time I limped it home, where we bled the thing all over again, and I adjusted the pedal free play. No success. No joy.
So my questions are: In a 1990 V6 Camry DL, is there some sort of ritual that needs to be performed to ensure a properly bled clutch hydraulic system, or is it a straightforward sort of bleeding?
More importantly, do any of you know the proper clearance between the slave-cylinder push-rod and the end of the bell-crank/clutch fork? Right now I have about 1/4" with no provision for adjustment that I can see. I fear a bent/broken bell-crank.
Third, I think there's some possibility that the master is not delivering enough 'throw'. It is where the leak has been. It is dripping down the inside of the firewall, and it has taken at least six months to run dry. If this turns into a clutch-fork replacement, I'm gonna let the mechanic replace the master cylinder.
So there it is, fellas. I hope some one will tell me I'm a bone head for not figuring it out and fixing it in five minutes!
The leak I know about is at the pedal end of the master cylinder. It seems to leak an ounce of fluid every 6 months, or so.
Do you know the proper clearance between the slave-cylinder push-rod and the bell-crank? I can't seem to find this info anywhere, which sort of leads me to believe that there's not supposed to be any clearance, which leads me to believe that either 1) The slave or master cylinder has developed a wear ring, and does not fully 'return', therefore robbing the system of that much-needed 1/4" of travel, or 2) The bell-crank is bent.
A new/rebuilt master and slave cylinder should solve your problem. The position of the slave pushrod, etc. sets itself as long as you have all stock components. (sometimes with a high-performance aftermarket kit you need a longer slave pushrod)
Its a fairly cheap fix since it sounds like you can do the work yourself.
-Charlie
__________________
2003 Impreza WRX Wagon 5spd - 2.2L stroker + other goodies
1989 Camry Alltrac LE 3S-GTE 5spd - SV25/ST205 hybrid
1990 Camry 3S-GTE 5spd - parted out / junked
1990 Camry DX 3S-FE 5spd - The original white90dx; gone but not forgotten
A new/rebuilt master and slave cylinder should solve your problem. The position of the slave pushrod, etc. sets itself as long as you have all stock components. (sometimes with a high-performance aftermarket kit you need a longer slave pushrod)
Its a fairly cheap fix since it sounds like you can do the work yourself.
-Charlie
That was my first mistake. Saying I could do the work myself!
Now I've spent about 5 hours in what can only be described as a torture chamber, and the master and slave have been replaced.
I used to love working on cars, but they've gotten smaller, and I haven't!
So, yeah master and slave are R&Red, but no joy.
I jokingly considered cashing in all my chips, and my girlfriend's chips, and going on a multi-state crime spree to finance a trip to Tokyo so I could find a certain Japanese Automotive Engineer and hunt him to his grave!
Seriously, fellas, if the nuts and bolts were where I could get at them, I could change the clutch master cylinder in 5 minutes or less! As it was, it took me 2 hours. If the car had belonged to me, and it was a little more of a beater, I would have just grabbed up the 4 1/2" grinder with the zipper-wheel and cut myself an access port.
Anyway, the clutch and pressure plate are obviously in good enough condition that they can stall the engine with ease, but I got no way to release the clutch.
That leaves a bent or broken bell-crank, right? Somebody tell me I'm not bleeding the &%$#(*(&^ thing correctly, or something!
So many thanks to all of you guys. You've been kind to me!
How's the movement of the slave pushrod? Hows the clutch pedal freeplay?
I can't imagine that any of the hard parts in the trans/belhousing are broken...
-Charlie
Hey Charlie,
The movement of the pushrod seems to be in the neighborhood of say...1/2" to 5/8". That is to say, the movement of the observable end of the bell-crank is 1/2" to 5/8".
Further, the pushrod supplied with the rebuilt slave was 4 mm shorter than the one in service, so I elected the longer, original rod.
OK. To review, There was no indication over the first 4 months of ownership that any hydraulic-clutch component was chronically leaky in this vehicle.
Girlie goes to the grocery just fine, but can't de-clutch when she leaves.
Calls me.
I figger dry master, and show up with fluid muy pronto.
No joy.
Limp her home (three blocks), and bleed the system.
Joy!
Next morning, errands and then, NO JOY.
Limped home.
Replaced clutch master and 'release' cylinders, gave a bleeding of close to twelve ounces of fluid, and the pedal will not release the clutch. The pushrod travels somewhere between 1/2" and 5/8" while encountering resistance from the clutch-diaphragm springs, which causes the fluid to gush out as I bleed this recalcitrant so-and-so.
The vehicle will 'limp' from place to place by dint of starting it 'in gear'. This is no problem because you have the clutch pedal fully depressed and safety switch thus defeated, yet the clutch is still engaged.
That is to say that one depresses the clutch pedal, and it feels as though it's doing its job. When one observes the slave-pushrod/bellcrank interface while it is being cycled, the bellcrank seems to be displaced by the pushrod a distance of ~9/16" along it's normal path. No obvious evidence of a broken 'hinge', ner nuthin.
It is almost as if the clutch plate were fused to the flywheel, but Girlie doesn't drive like that, trust me!
What is up, here? I mean, she ran the fluid dry, we limped it home, we bled it, it worked, she went around the corner. When she wanted to leave from there, she ran into the same problem: Pushing the clutch pedal did not result in the release of the clutch. We limped home, bought slave and master, R&Red and no joy. In this situation, one pushes in the clutch pedal, the fluid moves from master to slave, the bellcrank depresses the clutch diaphragm by way of the release bearing, yet the friction clutch disc does not float free.
The car is parked on a 15% incline, and will not budge when de-clutched.
Somebody tell me that there's some sort of voodoo involved with bleeding the hydraulic clutch on a V6 Camry!
I figger improper bleed, bent/broken bellcrank, or clutch disk fused to flywheel .
Your clutch should be good since when you first added fluid and bled the system, it was OK for a day. Replacing the clutch master and slave was the right thing to do. Did you adjust the freeplay of the clutch master when you installed it? If not, and you still have the old clutch master around, measure the length of the thread on each side of the double nut combination. Then adjust the new master's freeplay to the approximate amount on the original master. That's what the double nut setup is for. I would also suspect that they may have given you the wrong master or slave cylinder. Doublecheck with the supplier or even go to another parts house and inspect the ones they have in stock (hopefully) and take measurments. Compare to the ones now on your car.
I'll try to take a look at my Camry this weekend to see how far the clutch fork moves when the pedal is depressed...
Oh, and we will all have an easier read if you say "clutch fork" instead of bell crank.
It may be possible with a small mirror to inspect inside the bellhousing with a mirror either through the inspection cover at the bottom, the starter hole at the top or the rubber boot on the clutch fork.
-Charlie
__________________
2003 Impreza WRX Wagon 5spd - 2.2L stroker + other goodies
1989 Camry Alltrac LE 3S-GTE 5spd - SV25/ST205 hybrid
1990 Camry 3S-GTE 5spd - parted out / junked
1990 Camry DX 3S-FE 5spd - The original white90dx; gone but not forgotten
Your clutch should be good since when you first added fluid and bled the system, it was OK for a day. Replacing the clutch master and slave was the right thing to do.
Yeah, replacing the master and slave cylinders was the right thing to do. The master had a small leak and the slave was about 12 bucks, so...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Gerber
Did you adjust the freeplay of the clutch master when you installed it? If not, and you still have the old clutch master around, measure the length of the thread on each side of the double nut combination. Then adjust the new master's freeplay to the approximate amount on the original master. That's what the double nut setup is for.
I will be exploring the mysteries of clutch freeplay adjustment this afternoon, thanks for the tip!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Gerber
I would also suspect that they may have given you the wrong master or slave cylinder. Doublecheck with the supplier or even go to another parts house and inspect the ones they have in stock (hopefully) and take measurments. Compare to the ones now on your car.
Mike
Well Mike, as you have most likely figured out, I'm not much of a mechanic. I can change parts with a reasonable degree of competence, but diagnosis, insight...not so much. I have learned to do a fairly thorough comparison between old and new parts, though, and the only anomaly I found was the new slave pushrod was ~ 4mm shorter than the original. I installed the original.
Thank you once again for trying to cover as many bases as possible. I have spoken with several friends, here in Austin, and no one can crack this nut.
Personally, I'm beginning to believe this is one of those 'coincidental' failures. In other words, the master running dry had absolutely nothing to do with the present problem, they just happened to have occurred within 24 hours of each other.
Things I'm gonna try include adjustment of clutch freeplay, and I'm thinking of rigging up some sort of super-bleeder. I would slip a tube over the bleeder, and open the valve. Then I'd break the line loose from the master, and pour fluid into the slave, and let it drive any air out the loose connection at the master. The V6 seems to make the path of that clutch line into quite a squiggle! I can see that it may lend itself to forming an air lock.
Third, as per the suggestion of Charlie in his most recent post, I'm gonna see if I can open up an inspection port or maybe pull the starter to see if I can determine if the clutch is fused to the flywheel or pressure plate, or maybe the clutch fork is compromised.
Wish me luck, fellas! I'll let you know what I find out! Thanks again!
I'll try to take a look at my Camry this weekend to see how far the clutch fork moves when the pedal is depressed...
Oh, and we will all have an easier read if you say "clutch fork" instead of bell crank.
It may be possible with a small mirror to inspect inside the bellhousing with a mirror either through the inspection cover at the bottom, the starter hole at the top or the rubber boot on the clutch fork.
-Charlie
Hi Charlie, I wonder if you ever found that info about clutch fork travel.
I have about a fat 7/16".
According to the diameters of the master and slave cylinders,they are at a ratio of 1:1.3 (master:slave.). Actual diameters are Slave 13/16" and Master 5/8".
This means that a movement at the slave of 7/16" (.4375") should equal a movement of the Master of .4375" X 1.3 = .56875", or ~9/16".
I have measured the plunger travel at the master, and it travels about 1 1/8" or about twice what travel should be to produce 7/16" at the clutch fork/slave pushrod.
This can only mean the system is improperly bled
I sure would like to know how far the fork needs to move.
TIA fellas, you've already helped more than you know.
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, or clutch disk fused to flywheel 
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