My 1st Thread: Seeking info on 3sge/gte mods and suspension questions

[Toymods Rhyno]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post on here so please be gentle

Hi am from Oz and I am a mad Toyota enthusiast. I used to use toymods.org.au a fair bit but as the all trac Camry was released in the US, there is more people in the know about modding Camrys than compaired to Oz. So anyone in the know please chime in, all info is welcomed.

Now I have done a few mods to Camry after the old motor died, and have dropped a Gen 1 3sge in from a Celica st162 with a Microtech Lt10-s. A link to a photo diary/write up http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/for...-81-rt132.html

Now after servicing my injectors I am now up for a new cylinder head. I managed to over tighten the fuel rail and a nice chunk of the cylinder head broke off where rocker cover bolts down. I now know how weak alloy heads are... Anyways its all back together with some "quick metal" but I know this won't hold forever.

Now I have a Gen 2 3sgte out off a Mr2 SW20 that I plan to rebuild and drop in, say in the next 12-24 months. The 3sge has only done 50,000 kms and is going very hard so I don't want to upgrade to gte just yet - I already have issues with traction.

So to solve my problem for the short term I plan to pull the head off the Gen 2 motor and have it rebuilt and then fit it to my Gen 1 block. I already own +1mm Super Tech Valves, Dual valve springs and Titanium retainers to suit a Gen 2/3 head so they will be going in, as well a .0070 cometic head gasket to raise the compression. I am going to buy a phenolic inlet manifold gasket aswell. The head will get a mild port job.

So my first question for those in the know is:

1. What parts/mods can be done that will not hamper performance when I finally turbocharge the engine. I'm open to any suggestions, e.g. oil cooling, lighter flywheel etc etc.

And my second question, about Suspension: The only thing I have is an front strut brace. Would love to get my hands on some whiteline gear but they are discontinued... I also understand that st185/2 struts fit but need the holes in the strut increased... Austraila has little in the way of aftermarket Camry suspension besides lowered springs/shocks...

So for my 2nd question
2. For a Daily driven Camry what would be the best set up to get? 18mm whiteline swaybars or 20mm Kmac? Adjustable or not. What springs? What Shocks? Camber bolts? What would be your dream list and if possible where can I get them from?

I'm not too worried about a hard ride just want to replace all the gear which is starting to get tired with upgraded components

Thanks for reading,

Kind regards,

Ryan

[white90dx]

Its funny that you mention the Alltrac Camry thing - its only been in the last 5 years or so that people have been coming to the forums with Alltrac Camrys looking to mod them. Before that, it was all FWD stuff.

I don't have a Toymods account, so I couldn't view the link you posted. I'll assume you have a FWD Camry...

1. Do anything you want. If you are going to turbocharge the motor, no need to upgrade the header. Almost anything else will be fine with a turbo.

2. If you have a FWD Camry, you need to use FWD Celica coilovers if you are going that way. Very few mods need to be done to get them to fit. The Whiteline rear swaybar for the Camry is/was 17mm, which at its standard setting is already ~80% stiffer than stock. I know the Alltrac Celica rear swaybar swaps to the Alltrac Camry but I don't know about FWD versions... The front suspension is totally different when it comes to the lower arms/swaybar between the Celica and Camry, so don't try to swap those.

The 'perfect' setup is different for every person. I'm quite happy with coilovers on my daily driven cars (~30k miles a year on Tein SS's in the Alltrac and Bilstien PSS9's on my WRX). I know many other people for which new stock stuff is perfect. If you want <100% stiffer, go with mild upgrade stuff. If you want 200%+ stiffer, go with coilovers. Bushings, braces, etc. can also be added with varying levels of comfort/performance tradeoffs.

-Charlie

[Toymods Rhyno]

Hi White90dx, its great to here from you - I have read through quite a few of your threads and also your posts in other people's threads and really appreciate your input. Hopefully I may know as much as you one day about the humble "Camlica" However I doubt it, we never got the all-trac...

Here's an old link to the original write up I did, its a bit out dated now as I have deciced to keep my stuff on Toymods where it is a bit more private; for security reasons http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...2827988&type=3 It gives you an idea any way, its pretty much a pov spec CS Station wagon, I think its the same as the LE models you have the US?????

Thanks for your answers,

1. I was just wondering if I had missed anything in the engine mods compartment. I want to get the most out of the Gen 1 with its Gen 2 GTE head, but not waste any money on anything that will not be benerficial when I finally go the full forged Gen 2 gte route.

2. Thanks for clearing up the Celica coilover querie and you are exactly right about the "perfect" set up, every one is different. (FYI, I have read that the Caldina rear bars also fit the all-tracs, just thought u would like to know if u didn't, no use to me).

I think I am aiming at about the <200%, I have had a few cars with modified suspension (lowered springs/shocks with cheap strut braces) and never been to happy with the results. Can you reccomend a good supplier?

Thanks again for all your help,

Kind regards,

Ryan

[white90dx]

Originally Posted by Toymods Rhyno

I think I am aiming at about the <200%, I have had a few cars with modified suspension (lowered springs/shocks with cheap strut braces) and never been to happy with the results. Can you reccomend a good supplier?

Thanks again for all your help,

Kind regards,

Ryan

The problem with a gen2 Camry is the limited choices. Intrax springs are discontinued, I believe B&G makes springs, and there were one or two Aus manufacturers that did (maybe still do) make springs. There are only three choices for struts unless you go custom, stock (or stock like), KYB GR-2 and Tokico Blues. None of those are particularly 'performance' oriented.

You can custom fit some Koni's and custom springs with adjustable sleeves (Ground Control or similar). This was my plan with my Alltrac until a set of Tein SS coilovers came up for sale cheap.

Or you can go coilovers, though most of the options are the 'cheap' ones that really are more for looks than true performance.

Not an easy decision, eh?

-Charlie

[atobe]

King springs in .au has lowering springs for the camry http://www.kingsprings.com/catalogue..._catalogue.pdf . Or you can go the coilover route which ever makes you happy.

[Toymods Rhyno]

Originally Posted by white90dx

The problem with a gen2 Camry is the limited choices. Intrax springs are discontinued, I believe B&G makes springs, and there were one or two Aus manufacturers that did (maybe still do) make springs. There are only three choices for struts unless you go custom, stock (or stock like), KYB GR-2 and Tokico Blues. None of those are particularly 'performance' oriented.

You can custom fit some Koni's and custom springs with adjustable sleeves (Ground Control or similar). This was my plan with my Alltrac until a set of Tein SS coilovers came up for sale cheap.

Or you can go coilovers, though most of the options are the 'cheap' ones that really are more for looks than true performance.

Not an easy decision, eh?

-Charlie

I was hoping this was only the case over here in Oz - bugger! There is definitly a lot more items out there for the Gen 3 and up

Well this is not going to be an easy decision... thanks for the tip atobe about the king springs, but unfortantly I don't think they are what i'm after. I had a set of "super lows" in a st141 corona, it was much better than stock but was no track car.

EDIT: Just read Atobe's thread on FWD Celica coilovers in a Gen 2 Camry 90-93 celica coilovers into a gen2

I think the best solution for me is to get Celica ST1x2 fwd coilover's all round. END OF EDIT

I spose I can always buy a welder and make up my own chassis braces if this is not enough...

Thanks for your help guys,

Kind regards,

Ryan

[atobe]

Which camry do you have ? the FWD or all-trac one ? For the FWD i was able to put in st182 coilovers with very minor mods into the front.

[Toymods Rhyno]

Hi Atobe, thanks I just read your thread on doing that - unfortantly I think this may not work for me as I have FWD Camry stationwagon - I think the wagon has different suspension in the rear...

Have to do some more researching, fingers crossed its the same as the sedan.

Out of intest you wouldn't happen to be the same Atobe that go's on toymods.org every once in a while? I recognise the "Quantam Mechanics" sig

Thanks again

[white90dx]

Originally Posted by Toymods Rhyno

Hi Atobe, thanks I just read your thread on doing that - unfortantly I think this may not work for me as I have FWD Camry stationwagon - I think the wagon has different suspension in the rear...

Have to do some more researching, fingers crossed its the same as the sedan.

Out of intest you wouldn't happen to be the same Atobe that go's on toymods.org every once in a while? I recognise the "Quantam Mechanics" sig

Thanks again

Wagon rear suspension has the same geometry as the sedan. I think the only difference is the automatic brake bias adjuster, if equipped.

-Charlie

[auto_robotics]

Originally Posted by white90dx

You can custom fit some Koni's and custom springs with adjustable sleeves (Ground Control or similar). This was my plan with my Alltrac until a set of Tein SS coilovers came up for sale cheap.

Hi, I've heard this Koni's + Ground Control idea in a few threads here. Could I please get a few details on your concept? I have a 90 FWD 3sfe Camry.

I went to Koni's site and found these for the '90 Celica ST182:
8641 1211Sport Front
8641 1212Sport Rear

For a '89 Celica ST162:
8641 1115Sport Front
8641 1116Sport Rear

I'm assuming that the ST182 model is going to be similar to the issues with the Megan 90-93 GTS coilovers. Namely, rotated front top plates (would that matter for struts?), and the need to notch the rear bottom plates. Any thoughts on the ST162 version?

By Ground Control is everyone referring to these people?
http://www.ground-control-store.com

What's the deal there, would you go with their 90-93 Celica coilover conversion kit? Or are you saying to measure your springs dimensions, add a bit of stiffness/wire diameter and have a custom shop make them?
http://www.ground-control-store.com/...tion.php/II=89

What kind of ride do you think this would give vs. Megan coilovers? My interest is basic street performance handling, not track work or lowering for aesthetics.

Thanks!
- Craig

[white90dx]

Originally Posted by auto_robotics

Hi, I've heard this Koni's + Ground Control idea in a few threads here. Could I please get a few details on your concept? I have a 90 FWD 3sfe Camry.

I went to Koni's site and found these for the '90 Celica ST182:
8641 1211Sport Front
8641 1212Sport Rear

For a '89 Celica ST162:
8641 1115Sport Front
8641 1116Sport Rear

I'm assuming that the ST182 model is going to be similar to the issues with the Megan 90-93 GTS coilovers. Namely, rotated front top plates (would that matter for struts?), and the need to notch the rear bottom plates. Any thoughts on the ST162 version?

By Ground Control is everyone referring to these people?
http://www.ground-control-store.com

What's the deal there, would you go with their 90-93 Celica coilover conversion kit? Or are you saying to measure your springs dimensions, add a bit of stiffness/wire diameter and have a custom shop make them?
http://www.ground-control-store.com/...tion.php/II=89

What kind of ride do you think this would give vs. Megan coilovers? My interest is basic street performance handling, not track work or lowering for aesthetics.

Thanks!
- Craig

My plan was to go with custom-fit Koni's from the 8610/8611 series. If you are doing everything custom, you don't need to start with something meant for another car... I was still in the early planning stages of the whole conversion though. Getting the right spring rates, ride height, valving on the shocks, etc. is really a big challenge. Search google for "Koni strut conversion" to get an idea what is involved (most of the threads are for direct fit models, but you will get the idea).

And yes, that's the ground control I'm talking about. They use pretty good springs from Eibach, and their sleeves are of good quality.

-Charlie

[auto_robotics]

Originally Posted by white90dx

My plan was to go with custom-fit Koni's from the 8610/8611 series. If you are doing everything custom, you don't need to start with something meant for another car... I was still in the early planning stages of the whole conversion though. Getting the right spring rates, ride height, valving on the shocks, etc. is really a big challenge. Search google for "Koni strut conversion" to get an idea what is involved (most of the threads are for direct fit models, but you will get the idea).

And yes, that's the ground control I'm talking about. They use pretty good springs from Eibach, and their sleeves are of good quality.

-Charlie

Thanks for the info, I'll search around. As far as spring rates, it'd be useful to start from the original spec. Does anyone here know the original rates for these cars?

So the 8610/8611 Koni's look like the strut insert kind. Reminds me of question I had...

I understand you need serviceable struts to use inserts. My current struts are Monroe SensaTrac, installed maybe 8 years ago before I knew very much about cars. They appear to be sealed (no gland nut on top that I can see).

How do you acquire serviceable struts for the gen2 Camry? Were the factory originals serviceable and I made a mistake by letting the shop throw them away? Would I need to buy those first, then replace the insert?

In addition to the Tokico inserts you mention I have seen Billstein inserts for the rear only. At least in the classic Mustang world, Billstein is supposed to be right up there with Koni in quality.

- Craig

[Toymods Rhyno]

Just wanted to say thanks for the help guys,

Charlie, you where on the Money again, suspension is the same in the wagon, just had a look at the part numbers for the sedan/wagon and they are the same: http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_G_199...PGKQ_4804.html

I will be buying some Monroes or coilovers of the similar quality in the near future - I am sick of this thing turning like a pissed camel

Cheers,

Ryan

[white90dx]

Originally Posted by auto_robotics

How do you acquire serviceable struts for the gen2 Camry? Were the factory originals serviceable and I made a mistake by letting the shop throw them away? Would I need to buy those first, then replace the insert?

In addition to the Tokico inserts you mention I have seen Billstein inserts for the rear only. At least in the classic Mustang world, Billstein is supposed to be right up there with Koni in quality.

- Craig

Not all gen2 Camrys came with serviceable struts, so you may not have made a mistake (though we will never know ). The junkyard is probably your best bet for useable strut housings go for a conversion.

If you have welding skills, etc., you can do a really nice setup with whatever you decide to start with. You just have to buy a few raw materials and go from there. If you don't want to go the custom route (or feel you can't), then just go the standard 'springs and struts' or adapt Celica aftermarket coilovers.

And yes, if you can get Bilstein strut inserts that fit your needs, they will be of very high quality. In this case, I would consider the Koni options to be more 'performance' oriented and the Bilstein's to be a bit more 'comfort' oriented. The Bilstein PSS9's on my WRX are more comfortable than the stock suspension with lowering springs, but the car handles MUCH better...

-Charlie