Timing belt questions

[drunken_panda]

I'm back after a busy year off TN. I am about to attempt to change the timing belt on my 93 4cly and have several questions: The FSM shows that the timing belt cover has gaskets, should I replace those? In Ken4's write up, he replaces the timing belt pulleys, is that nesseccary? I also want to repalce the water pump while i'm in there, what is invovled with that?

[Stillrunning]

Originally Posted by drunken_panda

The FSM shows that the timing belt cover has gaskets, should I replace those?

If the 93 is the same as my 95 then those gaskets are actually rubber seals that fit in a groove on the covers. Mine were hard, cracked and just about broken in a few spots. I carefully took them out of the groves, squeezed black RTV into the grooves and pressed the seals back in and let the RTV cure overnight. On a 93 I'm not sure whether it's worth spending the money on Toyo new ones or not. Your call.

In Ken4's write up, he replaces the timing belt pulleys, is that nesseccary?

The aftermarket idler pulley kit from Dayco is about $110.00. Comes with replacement tension spring. I guess it's only necessary if you feel the pulleys can last until the next TB change. How many miles on these pulleys?

I also want to repalce the water pump while i'm in there, what is invovled with that?

You only have to buy 1/2 of the pump, the half with the impeller. Aftermarket comes with lifetime warranty and is about $40. Not hard to do, just follow the FSM. I'd replace the thermostat as well.

Are you considering cam seal, crank seal, oil pump seal?

[dc_98_cam]

I recently did this project on a 98 5s-fe. I think I would replace the idler pulleys, or at least the #1 upper idler. It seems to have more motion to it .... adjusting the belt tension.
NAPA has TB kit with either one or both idler pulleys. ... If you buy the water pump from the dealer, you get the complete assembly. If you buy from a parts store, you have to disassemble your old pump, and install the front cover and gasket on your new pump ... not really a major project. You will pay less. .... You will have to decide how you are going to loosen and remove the crank pulley center bolt ... Possibly 150 or 200 ft.-lb. if it has not been removed previously. I made my own tool .... it bolts on to the bolt holes in the crank pulley. A lot of other people go with the starter motor bump technique. ... your choice. ... Also, note that when you line up the timing marks on the crank pulley and the cam pulley, it is also necessary to have the belt tension evenly distributed. If you have a lot of belt slack on one side or the other of the cam pulley, then to avoid problems, you need to loosen the belt and try again. When it is correct, there will only be a slight deflection in the belt on either side of the cam pulley. ... There is a specific technique for setting up the #1 idler pulley before finally tightening the bolt down... rotating through 720 degrees in order to check it ... see the appropriate manual for your engine.
http://www.camrymanuals.com/index.ph...=106&topicid=0
I bought a new set of upper timing cover gasket material from the dealer ... something like $8. The lower gasket cover came off intact, so I left it as is.
... Also be sure and open the engine block drain on the rear of the engine, as well as the lower radiator ****.

[ycartf]

Originally Posted by dc_98_cam

You will pay less. .... You will have to decide how you are going to loosen and remove the crank pulley center bolt ... Possibly 150 or 200 ft.-lb. if it has not been removed previously..

This is not but 80ft/lbs - I have done this entire job twice in the past three months on two different cars.

[Stillrunning]

Originally Posted by ycartf

This is not but 80ft/lbs

I think what dc_98_cam may be referring to is the torque needed to break the crank bolt free. If it has not been touched in some time, and has never had anti-seize applied, then it may take 150-200 ft/lbs to crack. Add to that the problem trying to get good leverage while working on it from floor level and it can be a struggle. I found the easiest way to loosen was to use the starter method as I couldn't budge mine even with the crank holding tool I made.

[dc_98_cam]

"it may take 150-200 ft/lbs to crack"

My center pulley bolt definitely required close to 200 ft-fbs to break it loose.... I almost lifted myself off the ground using an 18" breaker bar.
... To make the pulley holding tool, I took some angle iron and two 3" long, 1/4" iron pipe nipples and welded together a Y shape at one end. ... It has 26" lever arm length and almost exactly a 2.25" center to center distance between the two pipe nipples.
... To use it, I bolt the pipe nipples to the two threaded holes in the crank pulley ... M8-1.25, if I recall correctly, and brace the other end against the ground.... Seems to work at about the 7 o'clock position, as you face the crank pulley. One advantage to using this tool, is that it facilitates the re-installation of the center bolt, and the torque- down to the required 80 ft.-lb.

[Yanpapa]

Originally Posted by dc_98_cam

Also, note that when you line up the timing marks on the crank pulley and the cam pulley, it is also necessary to have the belt tension evenly distributed. If you have a lot of belt slack on one side or the other of the cam pulley, then to avoid problems, you need to loosen the belt and try again. When it is correct, there will only be a slight deflection in the belt on either side of the cam pulley. ... There is a specific technique for setting up the #1 idler pulley before finally tightening the bolt down... rotating through 720 degrees in order to check it ... see the appropriate manual for your engine.

Yes, I've learned from my mistake of not getting a slack off on one side. If you start a car with spark plugs/wire and battery re-connected and hear a very laud rattle noise and engine stops, it means belt is loose. Also when I've changed a WP, some coolant did came out so put some rag/towel under WP and drain pan on a ground. Another thing that no one really mention(it may not apply to your car) when you install a upper timing belt cover, there is a little egde that actually fit on a lower cover fitting. After you've installed a upper cover with bolt and you can insert a finger between two covers, it means edge is not snaped together.

[ycartf]

I am telling you from doing three timing belt jobs in the past 14 months (2 of our's and a friend's), the easiest way (to me) to hold this still is to just remove the starter (10 minutes) and insert a prybar or large screwdriver into the flywheel teeth. I did buy a special tool off eBay for holding the cam sprocket (to keep from having to remove the valve cover and hold the keyed area of the camshaft) but it will not work with the crank because there are not holes in it large enough for this.

As far as having correct belt tension, I have found out that the best thing to do is mark your old belt and new belt. I know, I know, Toyotas have a fabulous marking system that makes it all idiot-proof to get it in time. BUT, placing small liquid paper marks on the edge of the belt at points I determine on the cam and crank makes sure that I also have the belt properly installed with the right amount of teeth between the cam and crank. It has been my experience that about one tooth too many is what naturally tries to occur when putting the new belt on, and it is very hard to stretch it manually to fit right. This is where I inch the crank backwards at the flywheel just one-tooth-worth, put the belt on, then advance the crank back to where it goes and check my marks. I then rotate my crank much more than the 720 degrees - usually about 8 times around for 4 cam revolutions. "Works every time"

[drunken_panda]

Thanks for all the responses. The car has 210K miles, It was orginally my mom's and she said she had 2 TB jobs done, but doesn't know/remember what was done.

Is it safe to get the water pump and pulley's after market? I know to get seals from the dealer. What about the belt itself?

Should the cam seal, crank seal and oil pump seal be replaced? They aren't leaking. I will do the valve cover gasket while I'm at it.

[Yanpapa]

Originally Posted by ycartf

I am telling you from doing three timing belt jobs in the past 14 months (2 of our's and a friend's), the easiest way (to me) to hold this still is to just remove the starter (10 minutes) and insert a prybar or large screwdriver into the flywheel teeth.

So I've try to tighten a crank bolt over the weekend but I wasn't able to hold a flywheel teeth into a place. Do you have bit more detail is to how do you insert a screwdriver and hold it in place? It seems that flywheel gear keep slipping off from a screwdriver and I can't hold a screwdriver in place.
thanks

[Yanpapa]

Originally Posted by drunken_panda

Is it safe to get the water pump and pulley's after market? I know to get seals from the dealer. What about the belt itself?

Should the cam seal, crank seal and oil pump seal be replaced? They aren't leaking. I will do the valve cover gasket while I'm at it.

I've used a Toyota OEM parts because got a great deal on parts. But I've heard Gates makes good aftermarket belts and WP. My Toyota Water Pump came with pump and its cover, so gasket was already inserted and came with two O-rings, gasket for water bypass pipe and thermostat seal. It was very easy to replace a WP for me.

[Stillrunning]

Originally Posted by Yanpapa

So I've try to tighten a crank bolt over the weekend but I wasn't able to hold a flywheel teeth into a place. Do you have bit more detail is to how do you insert a screwdriver and hold it in place? It seems that flywheel gear keep slipping off from a screwdriver and I can't hold a screwdriver in place.

I've never used this method but I think you need a friend to hold the screwdriver and flywheel while you tighten the bolt.