Automatic tranny malfunction after engine swap (3VZ-FE)

[deepsun]

Hi guys,

I hope you can help me out, I am absolutely desperate!
Last week I swapped my 3VZ-FE engine for another one (with the transaxle remaining in the car) since the old one had a head gasket blown. The swap went smooth and fine, the engine runs perfektly, no error codes are stored, no warning lights are on.

BUT:
The car just does not drive! The idle rpm in N and P are around 1100 (so a bit too high) but the idle rpm in D, R, 2 and L are around 1400! The car does not move a centimeter!

Of course I attached the flywheel to torque converter bolts.

I checked the fluid level (of course I lost a bit since I had to remove the radiator for the engine swap), even with running engine there seems to be TOO MUCH ATF in, although I did not add anything after the swap.

I read out the error memory of the tranny (with bridging connectors E1 and TE1 in the diagnosis connector and then look at the flashing O/D light): There seems to be no error code stored.

I checked the shift cable and it operates when the shift lever is moved.

There are no strange noises like any gears grinding against each other, just a total lack of movement of the car!

What I thought about, obviously, is that there is too little ATF in the tranny after the swap, but I do not dare to add something through the check stick since there seems to be too much inside...

Did anyone have the same problem? Does anyone have an idea what the problem might be?
I am really desperate!

THANKS A LOT IN ADVANCE!!!

Cheers,
Andie

P.S.: Forgot to mention: before the swap the tranny worked perfektly well! :-)

[dc_98_cam]

Haven't had much transmission experience with my Camry .... other automatics I have owned seem to take some time for the transmission fluid to be distributed throughout the system ....Maybe there is an air bubble trapped someplace. .... You might loosen one radiator connection at a time, and start the engine, and observe that there is in fact transmission fluid coming out at that particular aperture. ... Is there a procedure for filling the torque converter with fluid prior to installation?
... Don't have any definite ideas as to why idle speed is high, unless the ecu senses that something is wrong with the transmission and is trying to compensate with more rpms.
.... You don't see any loose wires or connectors anyplace ?.... If nothing obvious, you might consider removing the transmission pan and looking for metal pieces or anything unusual.

[deepsun]

Thanks for the suggestions!

Filling the torque convertor with fluid: I did not remove it, therefore I did neither drain nor fill it. It just slid out about 2 cm while I was detaching the engine. I then just slid it back. It worked without any resistance!

Loose wires: according to my haynes repair manual: if there were any loose wires (no1 and no2 speed sensor, no1 and no2 shift solenoid, lockup solenoid) an error code would be stored in the ECM of the tranny. However, there are no error codes stored.

idle speed: it sounds and feels like the engine just gets more resistance in N and P than in all other positions of the lever, which slows down the engine. This, however, is very odd since the resistane should be more in D, R etc!

Air bubble: this might be something, would also be consistent with "too much" fluid at the check stick, maybe its just not transported away from the chamber the stick goes into.
I think I am gonna drain and refill the tranny and see what happens....

Could you think of another explanation why the fluid level might be seemingly "too high" while it was completely ok before the switch?

Open the connections to the radiator: That's definitely something I am gonna try, but only tomorrow since I live in a rather religious area and neigbours might be offended if I did it on Sunday.... :-)

Open the oil pan: As a last resort I thought about that as well, but I do not expect to find something obvious (like pieces of metal) inside, since the tranny worked completely fine before the swap, and after there was no strange sound of something breaking or thelike.

Again, thanks for the suggestions, I'll keep you informed when I find something out, and if you have new ideas, I am happy to read it!

Cheers,
Andie

[dc_98_cam]

One more thing to try, no difficulty involved, is to start the engine, firmly apply the parking brake and brake pedal, and at idle engine speed, cycle the gear shift selector through each shift position .... repeat several times. Maybe this action will free up something that has become stuck.

.... That's about all I can come up with. When you find out what was wrong, post something on the forum here.

also see:

http://www.**********s.com/camry/ax2.pdf

[deepsun]

Hi,

got some new information: transaxle should be in N when performing an engine swap. I had it in P. How STUPID! Ok, but I checked, the parking lock pawl still works (i.e. vehicle cannot be pushed in P but can be pushed in N)

I heard that the tranny might be resetted somehow in that situation. I browsed the repair manual you posted, dc_98_cam, but did not find anything really. someone has some information about that?

I am gonna go to the car right now and try out some things... I'll keep you informed!

Cheers,
Andreas

[deepsun]

removed the hoses that go to the radiator: almost no oil was dripping out. after the initial few drops nothing came anymore, even when I start the engine.

drained the ATF and refilled: when I added just 1.5 l of approximately 4 liters that where inside, the fluid level seemed to be ok at the check stick (with engine running)

my conclusion: there is no oil pressure in the system, maybe the oil pump is not working. but I have no idea why. I also do not know how the oil pump is driven and if there could be something wrong....

I think I am gonna leave the car a few days, otherwise I go nuts! I worked the whole last week to replace the engine and now this... :-( I'll keep you informed when I find something out!

Thanks for all the help!

Cheers,
Andie

[davemac2]

if this is the same trans that was there before and was working, then it has to be something you did with the re-assembly with the engine or the torque converter. THe only thing I can think of is that the torque converter was not pre-filled with fluid or somehow the fluid that was in there leaked out. If you removed your old engine without first removing the torque converter from the flex plate, but rather removed the torque converter from the trans shaft, then you may have also damaged the torque converter shaft seal. The trans oil pump is directly behind the torque converter in the trans and is similar to the engine's oil pump. If the torque converter does not have any fluid, the trans shaft will not rotate and therefore there will be no trans fluid pressure. You in effect have to 'prime' the converter to get the trans shaft turning. Just put about 2 qts of fluid into the converter thru the trans shaft hole (I think). That should be enough to prime it. Make sure the torque converter is re-installed onto the trans shaft first and that it is seated properly all the way to the rear-most spline and does not spin freely. Then re-mate the trans to the engine and attach the torque converter to the flex plate thru the access port.

Are you sure you actually re-bolted the torque converter back up to the flex plate?

If your converter was in fact dry, you may have damaged it by running the engine. If you confirm it had no fluid, then you may better off just putting a new one in to save you headaches down the road if the current one fails now.

dave mc

[dc_98_cam]

I would guess that davemac2 is probably correct here. Something is wrong with the torque converter. If you decide to disassemble the trans from the engine, remove the torque converter and test the torque converter clutch ..... supposed to turn in one direction and lock in the other. .... Maybe just get a new or used torque converter, prime with fluid, and try again.

[deepsun]

Hi everyone

Davemacs explanation seems plausible, I also think it HAS to do something with the engine swap. I did NOT remove the torque converter during the engine swap, but it WAS pulled out a bit, but I put it back (after about 20 minutes) so that id did not spin freely anymore. Could it be that the fluid drained out during the time it was not all the way bacK (The oil did NOT run out of the tranny, however.)?

But yes, I rebolted the converter back to the plate that is attached to the engine (I though this is the flywheel but you seem to call it the flex plate... I never stop learning :-))

My problem is that I did the engine swap on the street in front of my house and I rented jackstands and an engine crane etc. pp. plus I took vacation... so If I have to pull out the tranny again, my car will be grounded for a considerable amount of time...

In any case I'll keep you informed, but it may take some weeks or even months before I can continue on the car... Shit happens....

Thanks again!

Cheers,
Andie

[deepsun]

Hi davemac2,

I had a lot of thoughts about the problem, and I have one question:
Do you have an explanation for the idle speed being LOWER in N and P (~1100 rpm) than in D and R (~1400 rpm)?


Furthermore I though of some "hacks":

Does the lockup mechanism work electronically?
If yes, Would it be possible to engange the lockup manually like by applying a certain voltage to its solenoid? If I understood correctly, then the back part of the converter should turn, even if there is no oil in the converter, activating the oilpump and establishing pressure....
I know this would put a terrible shock on the lockup pin (there is a pin, right?), but for me it would be worth it, if I then do not have to dissassemble the car again...

Secondly I though (I know these are wild thoughts) if it was possible to drill two small holes (on opposite sites) into the converter from the window where I can reach the converter to flex-plate-bolts, pump some oil inside and then seal the holes with two bolts with equal weight?
I know this is very very wild, but since the converter might anyway be wasted, I would be ready to give it a shot if you think this has even the slightest chance of working....

Thanks in advance!!

Cheers,
Andie

[davemac2]

Drilling holes in the torque converter would be VERY BAD idea. You would run into balance issues and at 4000 RPM, I'm sure your seal would never work. Please don't do this. Maybe a trans guy knows of a way to inject fluid into the converter thru a passage from the valve body or something. Never heard of it though.

The RPM may be higher in D and R because the computer increases the RPM when it knows the shifter is engaging a gear to compensate for increased drag at idle while in gear.

The TC lockup mechanism is hydraulic. The lockup solenoid resides in the valve body which sends fluid to the lockup clutch to engage. So no, that's not possible.

If you definitely did not remove the torque converter from the tranny, then I don't know what else to tell you. If you did not see any fluid drain from the TC, then its unlikely it lost any. When you install the TC, you should measure from the face of the trans bell housing to the mounting lugs on the converter to ensure the TC is completely seated on the trans shaft. There should be a spec for that from Toyota. If you were able to get the trans and engine back together without any issues, then I would think the TC is seated fine.

I know how frustrating this can be after all the labor you have put into it. I've been there. You may want to ask this question in a transmission forum to see if someone with more experience can give you other advice. try this forum: http://forums.automotive.com/69/1048...ion/index.html


dave mc

[deepsun]

Hi,

I heard from a Toyota dealer, that since If first connected the torque-converter to flexplate bolts and THEN tightened the engine-transaxle bolts, I could have ruined the oil pump (as the converter got pulled out while tightening the converter to flexplate bolts and hence was NOT all the way in and then got pressed in by the engine to transaxle bolts in a wrong position).

I think I have to get a second hand tranny and have to prepare for another mayor project.... as hard as it is...

I keep you informed what I am going to do, but as I wrote, it might take a while.

Thanks again for everything!

Cheers,
Andie

[dc_98_cam]

All I can suggest is to review the repair manual link given above when you remove/install the new transmission. There might be one or two steps that are critical, but not obvious.
... It is still difficult to understand exactly what went wrong here. Maybe a slight oil pumpshaft misalignment was the cause of the problem, or possibly a seal on the oil pump that was dislodged .... a result of not strictly following the installation steps.
... I'm sure there are expert independent transmission shops that could disassemble your transmission and tell you what the problem is. .... Probably not an option or economically feasible though.
regards
Dave

[kocho]

Any resolution to this? I'm about to install my replacement tranny and would like to avoid any pitfalls that you might have insight about. I think your mistake was to install the Torque Converter to the engine side first and may be it is not seated properly now against the tranny...

Let us know how it turned out at the end!

[deepsun]

Hi guys,

it was a quite stupid mistake:
While I had the engine out the torque converter must have slid out a bit.
I just pushed it back in, and that was the mistake.
When installing the torque converter two things have to match up:
the shaft coming out of the tranny with the "center disk" (sorry I do not know the technical term for that) inside the converter, that matched up in my case.
But also the two groves at the end of the pipe-like thing sticking out of the converter have to align with two knobs inside of the tranny. This pipe-like thing is part of the torque converter-housing which is bolted to the flywheel, thus it is allways turning and powering the oil pump of the tranny.
Since in my case the groves did not line up with the knobs, I pushed parts in the tranny back while tightening the engine to tranny bolts.
That broke the tranny's oil pump and some clutch plates inside.

I had to buy another tranny... a stupid rooky mistake... But at least I won't do that again... :-)

Next time when I install a torque converter I insure that it is properly positioned: you can check that by measuring if it slides into the tranny far enough. You have to measure the distance from the front surface of the tranny to the torque converter, for the A541E, the tranny for the 1MZ-FE it has to be more than 0.539 inches. (page AX2-36 of the '94 Camry repair handbook posted as a sticky thread here in the forum). I hope it is the same distance for the A540E, the tranny for the 3VZ-FE engine.

I hope you understood what I was writing, although I do not know all the technical terms for the parts of the torque converter.

If you have more questions, feel free to ask!

Cheers,
Andie