Please tell me I haven't destroyed my mom's camry.

[ohgood]

My mother in law has a 1998 fuel injected 4 cylinder camry. It's been a great car, and only has 140,000 miles. My wife, son and her were planning a trip of about 700 miles one way, so I was going to change the oil. I decided I would change the oil, since I don't know the last time I've changed it. The owners manual has gone missing, where I keep track of oil changes, rotations, etc.

I'm a nice guy, and a decent DIY mechanic. (I've changed my trucks timing chain)

I drained the oil from the camry, and only about 1 quart filled the catch pan. This startled and shocked me. It was dark in color. I didn't notice any leaks under the engine.

Symptoms:

After completing the oil change, it sounds like a rod is knocking or a piston wrist pin. It's not a constant noise. It only sounds when then engine is revved to 4-5,000 rpm, as the engine slows again.

There doesn't seem to be any power loss. It accelerates well.

It doesn't make noise at idle, or while cruising at 55 mph from what I can tell.

I used a FRAM filter ph4697 (I THINK) and 5w-30 Castrol. This is the oil I've used for about 3 years now in that car.



Please tell me I should use a heavier oil, and I haven't destroyed a perfectly fine automobile. My mother in law's (a very nice lady) auto at that. I feel like a total ass for not preventing this. I check my other vehicles' oil level with every fillup. Each one !

Please tell me I didn't kill my mom's car. Like I said, it still drives fine, but the occasional noise on decel from higher rpm's makes my stomach turn.

Sorry for the long post. Thanks for the opinions.

-kyle

[MIC0417]

Sounds like sludge. Best bet is to take the valve cover off and see if there is any, if so you can run some treatments through. About the noise I have no ideas.

[ShawnM]

Could be sludge, could be minor piston slap. There obviously wasnt enough oil in there when you drained it but as long as its not hammering away I would just try a thicker oil.

[bigbird]

definatly check and see if there is sludge. the gen4 5sfe as prone to sludge problems as far as i know. as a result it may be the sludge that is causing the sound somewhere in the valve train. just pop off the valve cover and inspect, but dont go scooping it out if u do see alot, often the sludge is the only thing keeping things together when it reaches that point.

[Venom_5]

you have destroyed your mom's camry!!!!


here's how to remove your valve cover:
How-To Guide: Removing and Painting a Valve Cover - 5SFE -- 56K warned Lots of Pics

make sure to have a 30mm socket for those spark plug nuts, and the torque spec on those is 17 ft-lbs to put them back on, i do believe ....

also, make sure you buy a valve cover gasket from your nearest Toyota Dealer for when you put the valve cover back on (dont reuse the old gasket) ... they should be about $20

and be sure to take some pictures of what it looks like under the valve cover, that way we can help you out if there is a sludge problem!

[ohgood]

Originally Posted by Venom_5

you have destroyed your mom's camry!!!!


here's how to remove your valve cover:
How-To Guide: Removing and Painting a Valve Cover - 5SFE -- 56K warned Lots of Pics

make sure to have a 30mm socket for those spark plug nuts, and the torque spec on those is 17 ft-lbs to put them back on, i do believe ....

also, make sure you buy a valve cover gasket from your nearest Toyota Dealer for when you put the valve cover back on (dont reuse the old gasket) ... they should be about $20

and be sure to take some pictures of what it looks like under the valve cover, that way we can help you out if there is a sludge problem!

OK, so several people have mentioned sludge. The main issue here is wether or not a bearing is turned, or other damage has occured. The engine was run very low on oil, for an unknown period of time. As I mentioned there was _maybe_ a quart in the pan when I changed the oil this morning.

I have just completed an oil change/lube/service/top off on the wife's honda so the trip goes on as planned. We had a short lesson about how to properly check the oil at EACH and EVERY refueling.

Why are people concentrating on the possibility of sludge vs the possibility of doing much more extensive damage by just running the motor ?

I've considered putting 20w-50 in it, just to see if it lessons the noise, but it would basicly be a band-aid on a broken arm in my opinion. I tend to follow the filler cap's instructions (or any for that matter) on recommended fluids. It calls for 5w-30.

Thanks again.

[Venom_5]

because sludge can cause these sorts of problems

and the 5S-FE is picky about oil, and if you do not change the oil in proper intervals (or run without), it can cause sludge buildup

[bigbird]

we are concentrating on it because it is the only problem that may be worth fixing, other wise you've prolly messed up the bottom end and the repairs will be substantial. its hard to diagnose a problem like this since there are several things that could be making the noise. if u did spin a bearing the car would be running rough though, i dotn think its that.

do u know if the car was running any hotter then normal?

[w203]

Toyotas covered by the Louisiana settlement include the:

• Camry 4 cylinder from 1997-2001
• Camry 6 cylinder from 1997-2002

due to sludge in the engine because of a design problem with the pvc. you can check the system to see it is getting adequate air to the engine or you can pop open the valve cover. when you drained the oil, was it thick or thin? any metal shavings?

[toyomoho]

How did the engine run before the oil change? Dark oil is normal, was the oil thick as in somewhat gelled? Are you sure the filter is not a PH4967? Did you fill the engine up to the correct fluid level after the change and (have to ask) did you drain the trans or differential fluid by mistake?

Is it your fault you’re the owner failed to keep the oil up to the correct quantity, this issue would have happened even if a professional shop did the oil change

The 5SFE is known to make a normal valve train noise that can be deemed loud to some owners. Use a piece of rubber hose as a stethoscope to run down the area of noise, upper or lower engine. The engine also has vibration damping rotating shafts on the bottom end.

A rod knock is pretty pronounced, as someone suggested might be piston slap or something completely different. Still rod knock does occur on deceleration. See link below for an aid to engine noises.

http://www.offroaders.com/tech/Engin...-Diagnosis.htm

Check for leaks with engine running, something like a bad oil pump seal can leak a lot of oil over a relative short mileage interval.

Have a shop look at the car, just tell them it is making a noise and let them make a diagnosis.

As others have stated you can check for sludge by removing the valve cover. Toyota did have an issue with this but in prospective they made hundreds of thousands of these engines and only a few had problems. There was a lawsuit over the sludge issue but any extended warranty would have expired on this year of car.

If the engine is bad suggest you find a good used engine such as out of a totaled car. To make the swap easier try to find and engine of the same year and emissions standard. The engine cost would be reasonable and overall cost low if you did the engine exchange yourself. And pull the valve cover off any used engine just to see if sludge is an issue.

[ohgood]

Originally Posted by toyomoho

How did the engine run before the oil change? Dark oil is normal, was the oil thick as in somewhat gelled? Are you sure the filter is not a PH4967? Did you fill the engine up to the correct fluid level after the change and (have to ask) did you drain the trans or differential fluid by mistake?

Engine ran fine before the oil change, but I did note the noise. I originally thought it was typical valve train noise, while sitting in the car with the air and radio going.

Dark oil is usually something I don't see, as I keep regular 3,000 mile intervals on the camry, the pickup (22r, 20 years old), vtec (2.2 10 years old), gs500 (10 years old, 20,000 miles). It's uncommon for one of my 'fleet' to have nasty oil in it. Typical changes have the darker honey appearance. This is part of the reason I'm so shocked by the camry's current problem.

The oil was so minimal (less than 1 1/2 quarts) that it was difficult to say if it was gelled or just very abused.

Yes, I think I posted the wrong filter id. The filter is a ph4967, from autozone, fram of course.

Yes, I filled the engine correctly, with 5w30. I have yet to put transmission fluid in the valve cover. (I understand asking, and illiminating all possibilities)

The transmission and differential plugs do not yet have crush washers. They are both in fine shape and have been changed when we bought the car >3 years ago. Those fluids are also clear and in good condition.


Thanks for the information about sludge. I'll question the dealer about it.

[DAMON]

I think the most reassuring thing should be that when you got the car it had no oil in it- that isnt your fault. If anything its the mom's fault for not keeping oil in it. And if you heard the noise before, its safe to say she wrecked it and not you, so at least youre off the hook in that department.

I would also check the rear main seal for oil loss. Mine is going on my gen 3, so it loses oil but most of it never hits the ground- this could be a source of the oil loss in the first place. Checking into sludge would be a good place to look as well, but there are a lot of seals that tend to go on the 5sfe at about that mileage.

Good luck!

[Kep]

From your description it sounds like you received the car with 1-2 quarts of oil in it. As soon as you got the car you changed the oil and discovered low oil. Not your fault, it's your mother in law's negligence.

The reason the forum has been focused on the oil sludge as opposed to other, more disastrous possibilities, is that the noises that you are describing are often symptoms of an oil sludge situation. Add to that that you only got 1-2 quarts out and that that oil was filthy. Both of those conditions just beg oil sludge to build up plus are very good indications of poor past maintenance.

Pop the valve cover and look. It will cost you the price of the valve cover and spark plug tube gaskets. If it is sludge, the dealer may be able to help out (though if the dealer knows that you ran it down to one quart of oil he may not be so inclined). What year is the car, by the way?

I smell a cash cow situation here. Even if you take it to the dealer ask to see inside the engine before they start into any major repair and ask for the bad parts to be retained until you can inspect them after the repair. And like toyomoho said, just tell them what noises and problems that you have observed and let them do the diagnosis. Don't give them a preconceived idea.

Kep

[ohgood]

Originally Posted by Kep

From your description it sounds like you received the car with 1-2 quarts of oil in it. As soon as you got the car you changed the oil and discovered low oil. Not your fault, it's your mother in law's negligence.

The reason the forum has been focused on the oil sludge as opposed to other, more disastrous possibilities, is that the noises that you are describing are often symptoms of an oil sludge situation. Add to that that you only got 1-2 quarts out and that that oil was filthy. Both of those conditions just beg oil sludge to build up plus are very good indications of poor past maintenance.

Pop the valve cover and look. It will cost you the price of the valve cover and spark plug tube gaskets. If it is sludge, the dealer may be able to help out (though if the dealer knows that you ran it down to one quart of oil he may not be so inclined). What year is the car, by the way?

I smell a cash cow situation here. Even if you take it to the dealer ask to see inside the engine before they start into any major repair and ask for the bad parts to be retained until you can inspect them after the repair. And like toyomoho said, just tell them what noises and problems that you have observed and let them do the diagnosis. Don't give them a preconceived idea.

Kep

Update:

The dealer called back and said that multiple bearings had spun. He also stated the rest of the motor was, or very soon would be junk because of the bearings. I'm going to ask about the sludge lawsuit at the dealer and see what is said.

He of course would not quote a rebuild price, as he said it was a loss. He DID want to sell me a used with warrantee motor for $5500. Or a used non-warrantee motor for $4600.

Needless to say it's going to be either the sludge recall/lawsuit coming into play, or _me_ doing a motor swap in the driveway. This is not going to be fun at all. I won't pay $5000 for a 6 month / 6,000 mile warrantee motor.

I'm shopping craigslist now for a wreck, and thanks to all the horrific drivers in florida it shouldn't be hard to find a low mileage motor.

If anyone has any other interesting bits, go on, I'll check in often.


Thanks again to all of you.

[Venom_5]

you can get a 5S-FE for MUCH less than $5000

i know a guy that got one for $800, did the swap himself at minimal cost ... and had it up and running in no time

thats what i recommend you do! dont let the dealer charge you anymore, and youre probably not going to get anything out of any "lawsuit" or "recall" since its the owner's fault that the engine is in poor condition

you have already admitted that you received the car without oil - which means it was run without oil, which would void any possibility of getting sympathy from a lawsuit or recall