Need some help with a starting problem - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums

Cgarman · 03-30-2008, 08:59 PM

Okay, noob to your board here, but not a noob to the Toyota family, I cut my teeth on a 77 Celica LB... shoot myself just about every day for getting rid of it... My wife has a 93 Camry V6 XLE with about 140,000 miles. About a week ago it started giving us problems starting.
The symptoms:
Car cranks over strongly, but doesn't start, weather is not a factor. If you hold the pedal to the floor it eventually starts, stumbles a bit and then runs fine. If you stop the car it will restart normally, but only within a couple of minutes. Longer than ten or fifteen minutes and you have problems again.
Remedies I have tried.
Spark plug removal and regapping. Removal of throttle body and cleaned. New EGR valve vaccum thingie... right next to intake manifold. Fuel filter was replaced last summer and she has only driven 10-12 thousand miles since. Replaced all the vaccum lines that I could. My wife tried some Lucas Oil fuel system cleaner last week, but that did not help.
I have searched the forum... found lots of great stuff(gonna eventually replace broken power attena with S2000 fix and soon to seafoam the engine) but nothing really relating to my problem.
Coming from a carburator background, it reminds me of vapor lock. Can that happen with a FI engine? If so, I know how to fix it with a carb, but not with FI.
Any sort of help would be greatly appreciated.
Lastly, I thought it might be a case of poor fuel. I filled the car up last monday morning and the problem started tuesday. So first thing I figured was the gas that I filled up with was some how tainted. She put the fuel system cleaner in wednesday afternoon and filled up at the same time. The problem since then has gotten no better, but it has not gotten worse.
Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to be thorough.
TIA
Ken

Nad1370 · 03-31-2008, 12:34 AM

While cranking..do you have strong spark?
What's the condition of you distributor cap, rotor and wires?
How did your plugs look after taking them out. Hope your not using BOSCH plugs.

I suspect weak spark and eventually flooding the plugs with unburned fuel.
I wouldn't rule out a weak or failing fuel pump. But I would check for a good strong spark first.

unkit · 03-31-2008, 07:22 AM

I'm having a similar problem. In the morning, mine cranks and cranks, but won't start. Then when i let it go, and try again, it starts. It doesn't give any problems during the rest of the day though....'

Wonder what it could be. Hope u find a solution. I don't really know much, but how old is your battery? I noticed this problem only after i have had a new battery installed.

Cgarman · 03-31-2008, 11:52 AM

The distributor cap, rotor and wires were replaced a year or so ago. Plenty of spark. Late last night I retarded the timing a bit by moving the distributor in a counter-clockwise motion. This morning, the car started right up, but the throttle response was crappy. I reset the distributor a bit and went from there. The throttle response seemed better, but I won't know if that solved the cranking problem till the wife leaves work this afternoon. I don't believe that it is a spark issue as the car idles fine and runs great once started. The plugs are only a couple months old. I thought they might be the culprit as when I first starting trying to solve the issue, one of the spark plugs was a bit loose. I tightened it and that fixed the problem for a day. It came right back though. I really think it is an air fuel mixture problem. If you don't hold the pedal to the floor during starting, you get a nice fuel smell. I am guessing that it is flooding. I may try to replace the wires as I think they are a bit small. They might be 5mm wires right now. Also, how do I check the coil? That is the only part of the ignition system that has not been replaced recently.

Kep · 03-31-2008, 12:36 PM

I had a similar problem with a 1990 3SFE. It turned out to be a cracked injector that was allowing the fuel in the lines to drain back into the tank overnight (air was able to seep into the fuel rail and drain it out.) In the morning it would take a while to get the fuel back up into the fuel rail. Evidently, I used it enough in the day so it didn't drain out enough to notice.

You may have a similar problem that is allowing air to get into the fuel lines and drain the gas.

Kep

Mike Gerber · 03-31-2008, 01:00 PM

I would check the engine coolant temperature sensor. This is the sensor under the green connector. It tells the ECU (computer) what the engine temperature is and the ECU adjusts the fuel mixture accordingly. It could be out of range. You will need a digital volt/ohmeter and the specs from any manual to do this.

To check the coil you will also need the DVM and the specs from any manual. The procedure will be in the manual. Also do a visiual inspection of the coil and look for hairline cracks. If the coil had hairline cracks, the situation would be worse in wet/damp weather.

Also, holding your foot to the floor is the correct way to start a flooded engine, either carburated or fuel injected. Since you mentioned that you can get the car to start by holding your foot to the floor, that would lead me to believe your engine is being flooded by some sensor. Again, the most common sensor that can cause that would be the engine coolant temperature sensor.

Mike

Cgarman · 03-31-2008, 01:31 PM

Yeah, I thought about the coolant temp sensor, but couldn't locate it. My manual show where it is for the I4, but not the V6. Is it in the same place? The manual shows the I4 location on the passengers side of the block just below where the upper rad hose comes out from the block. Is this the correct location?

Mike Gerber · 03-31-2008, 02:09 PM

I don't remember noticing where it is located on the V6. It always has a geen plastic electrical connector attached to it. Look for that green connector.

Mike

Kep · 03-31-2008, 04:47 PM

I'm not sure of the 1MZ-FE engine. Can you tell from this? It is supposed to be the green circle. The LH oxygen sensor is the red circle and the cam sensor is the blue circle.

Kep

Cgarman · 03-31-2008, 08:54 PM

I will check it tomorrow morning. It is too dark right now to check. Hopefully this is it. My wife said the car started okay when she left work. She did though, complain about it stumbling on acceleration. Most likely that is a result of improper timing.

Cgarman · 04-03-2008, 09:21 PM

Okay, I have checked the coolant temp sensor. Everything appears to be okay. I am getting 300 or so Ohm at operating temp and around 1900 or so at normal start up temp. The manual claims that it should be closer to 2200 to 2700 ohm at 50 to 80 degrees. The new one I just bought registers about 1975 ohm at room temp(75 degrees or so) I figure that the CTS is okay. I am getting 5 volts at the connection, which is also within spec. So what can be next. I may try new wires tomorrow evening and see what that does. This thing is getting me stumped. Although, the wife put a couple of gallons of gas in today. The fuel gauge was almost at the empty line. She said that it ran much better on the way home. Maybe it will be bad gas after all...

davemac2 · 04-04-2008, 01:08 AM

I think a bad injector is something that sounds reasonable to me. Put a fuel pressure gauge on the fuel rail or top of the fuel filter and check the pressure when the ignition key is first turned and then while the car is being cranked.

Other possibilities:

bad head gasket. Are you losing coolant?

sticking MAF sensor. Inspect the flap on it to make sure it isn't sticking closed.

Maybe try to pull each of the plugs before attempting to start the car in the morning and check for any fouling or wetness. That may pinpoint a leaky injector.

The ECT sensor for the 93 XLE V6 by the way is on the coolant intake manifold on the trans side of the engine. The sensor mounted near the thermostat is the sensor for the hydraulic fan.

dave mc

Cgarman · 04-04-2008, 09:50 AM

I am really hoping that it is not a bad head gasket... The car does give off some 'steam' from the exhaust pipe in the morning. I have held my hand in front of the tailpipe and condesation forms on my palm. It does not smell of coolant though. I haven't seen any noticeable loss of coolant. The car has always lost a small amount of coolant since we bought it. I have to add maybe a pint or less every couple of months. I will check the injectors price and go from there.

Cgarman · 04-07-2008, 09:50 AM

Well, even though it was testing ok, I went ahead and put in the new coolant temp sensor. Sure enough, that was it. The car starts just fine now. I took the time to seafoam the car while I was working on it. The wife was out to dinner while I did it... Good thing as the amount of smoke would have freaked her out. I drove the car for a while and then put the rest of the seafoam in the tank and filled her up. She drove the car for most of the day on saturday and reported no problems at all. Strange thing was, the CTS did read that far off from where it was supposed to. Anyway, the problem is gone and the wife is happy. That is all that really counts!