3rd & 4th Generation (1992–1996 & 1997–2001)Toyota Camry Discussion for years: 1992-1996 & 1997-2001
Topics of discussion range from fuel economy, safety, modifications, performance all involving America's favorite family car, the Toyota Camry.
Alright everyone... I have a 1993 Camry LE V6 (3VZ-FE engine). It's a great car, but it's been giving me and multiple mechanics the run-around for a few weeks now. Here's the deal in chronological order (best I can remember):
1) Shortly after the car was purchased used about 2 years ago, the spark plugs were replaced because the engine would shake like crazy when the gas pedal was pushed (which are nearly impossible for a normal person to replace so a mechanic did it). Also noted that the idle was a little high, but once the spark plugs were changed, things were fine.
2) The idle continually got a little higher and higher over time (up to around 1200 RPM warmed-up), so, unknowingly, I moved the throttle stop screw to change the idle to make it lower. As I said, I had no idea that the throttle was done by a computer (I'm used to working on quite old cars... mostly carburetor types...). But now I know about it.
3) A/C gives out. Sucks... I live in the desert, not good. Figured just an old A/C or something.
4) Things were fine and dandy for about 2 years (oil changes +/- 3000 mi or so, got a strut replaced, sway-bar bushings replaced, brake fluid filled, radiator flushed, etc.). Then about a little over a month ago, I notice that the idle at a stop light was lightly moving the RPM up and down -- almost fluttering. I thought nothing of it - figured just a weird couple days.
5) A week or so after that, almost out of nowhere the car starts rumbling like crazy! I let go of the gas, it goes away. I push the gas pedal, it starts up again. I floor the gas, the problem completely goes away and doesn't come back for a few days. Then it comes back almost randomly.
Do the same thing, it goes away. Then the rumbling starts up again. It stays for a while, then I turn off the engine for an hour, it goes away. Often times this problem occurred after I exited the freeway after an hour of driving on it and getting off to go to work (so I'm on city streets). I never notice this problem on the freeway at RPM between 2000-3000.
6) I ask some mechanics about it. "Need a diagnosis for $80." "Could be anything?!" You get the drift.
7) As a precaution, and turned out to be a necessity, I replaced the distributor cap and the air-cleaner hose. That helped somewhat for an hour or two. But still got the rumbling.
8) Then I get fed up and take it to the local dealer. Ready to pay $100 to get it diagnosed, the mechanic takes it for a test drive. Can't feel a thing wrong. Notices the engine mounts are broken probably. Also notices the idle is a little funny -- it's too high (around 1000 RPM) and it's moving a little. Miraculously, the awesome mechanic didn't charge me a dime. He probably saw how frustrated I was and felt sorry for me. I don't blame him. He said to try to get the engine mounts fixed and that the reason for the idle being weird needs to be determined first. He also informed me about the throttle stop screw and the electronically controlled idle.
9) So I take it home. Still rumbling randomly. Take it to the dealer, no problems. Take it to a mechanic, no problems. My wife drives it - only feels the rumbling once. Sometimes I think this car hates me....
10) I decide to do something productive and decide to research on this problem. Originally, I was trying to find the length or something for the throttle stop screw's position. I moved the thing so many times, I had no idea where to put it back to. So I eventually ended up here at ToyotaNation.com. Apparently a lot of people suffer from vibrations due to an unknown cause - just different symptoms at different times. People have replaced everything and fixed lots of things, but nothing works. Around those posts, I noticed - hey, people are cleaning the throttle body a lot. Why don't I do that? So I did. It helped a little -- and also caused another condition to occur.
11) The newest condition is the RPM's behavior -- now when I press the gas pedal it races up a little too slowly, and when I let go of the gas to coast the RPM gauge drops almost below 1000 RPM then perks back up to 1500 RPM. Note that this only occurs if it is below 2000 RPM before dropping. The shaking is also consistent now. My gas millage is also crappy - lost nearly 80 mi. to a tank.
So, as a summary of what I've done to repair the car regarding this matter: 1) dist. cap is new, 2) air filter hose is new, 3) throttle body/butterfly has been cleaned. I have tried to check the throttle position switch, but, unfortunately, I have no experience or knowledge regarding checking electrical things. The engine mounts are going to be replaced this week.
Here's my questions for everyone:
1) ANYBODY KNOW WHAT THIS IS!?
2) Does anyone know off the top of their heads exactly how far the throttle stop screw is supposed to be pushing down on the throttle angle plate? I've checked the service manual, and it just says that there should be no distance between the two.
3) One of my repair books for this car says to "apply vacuum" to a vacuum hose that originally connected to the TPS in order to check for continuity using an Ohm-meter. However, the mechanic at the dealer said that you have to have the engine turned off in order to check for resistance. How do I "apply vacuum?" No book or website has specifically told me what that means.
I'd appreciate any help people can offer. I would also appreciate detailed and/or numbered walkthroughs on any suggestions that you have to offer. I'm not very good with figuring things out on the fly, but with the book in my hand and a easy to understand suggestion, I should be good. Thanks in advance!
Also noticed that when the gas pedal is held down at approx. the same position, the car suddenly will lightly accelerate more than expected then not. That may be a helpful clue... I dunno.
Very interesting, especially your #11.
Being used o my jeep, I'm a little lost with this car, but the issue I was having was that when I took the foot off of the accelerator, the rpms would jump up and down until I applied gas again. Was suggested to me to clean out the IAC.
After I did that and the throttle body, the issue went away. This was replaced with when I'm doing higer speeds, say coming off of a highway, and have to brake, the rpm's drop excessively, then come back up to normal. A couple times they dropped enough to stall the engine. No clue why this is now.
Would definitely check the mounts for wear. I've noticed a couple of the bushings are showing signs of wear and have to replace mine. I know with the jeep, the worn motor mounts caused a lot of vibration of the whole vehicle. Not sure if the same holds true for a camry but worth a look.
First of all it would help to know the mileage on the car. Also, has the check engine light every come on? Did you check for trouble codes?
That said, I would start by checking all vacuum lines for leaks. If you can't find any vacuum leaks, I would check the coil inside the distributor. They have been known to cause problems on the first 3 generations of Camrys. You will need the specs from any manual and a digital volt/ohmeter to do this. Also, remove and check the coil carefully for hairline cracks. There is a full factory generation 3 Camry manual stickied at the top of the Camry forum on AutomotiveForums.com. I suggest you download the entire manual and save it to a disc. It will give you the coil specs and other tests to perform.
By the way, you apply a vacuum with a hand operated vacuum pump. You can buy one at an auto parts store or tool store. Cheap ones under $30. Prices go up from there.
Kep
__________________
Often, it's the loose screw between the steering wheel and the driver's seat that needs to be fixed first!
Thanks all for the suggestions. I really appreciate Kep letting me know about applying a vacuum. Mike, the car has almost 150,000 miles on it. The check engine light has never come on. The mechanics that I talked to said they couldn't check for any codes without the CE light on.
Today, many things were cleaned. The throttle body got another thorough cleaning because this time it was taken off the intake manifold. The IAC valve was cleaned and tested, including all vacuum hoses and such. The EGR valve was also tested for motion when pressure was applied. The throttle body got a new gasket as well. I will look into the idea about the distributor coil. I am also going to look into the electrical systems more thoroughly. More suggestions are always helpful!
It sounds like you are getting the necessary items done. It does sound like a sensor mal function or a sticking valve. I believe that you have an OBDII port on that model. If so, it might be worth while to take it in to have the codes pulled (take some paper to write them down). Many of the auto parts stores in the Houston area do this for free. You might call around your area to see if they do there.
Once you get things cleaned out start checking the sensor operation. The manual that Mike mentioned is very good. I would download the whole thing onto your computer though. Toyota gets a wild hair every now and again and closes sites like that down.
Kep
__________________
Often, it's the loose screw between the steering wheel and the driver's seat that needs to be fixed first!
Update on how things are going:
Last night I checked the distributor itself. Lo and behold, the air gap between the G1 & G2 pickups on the distributor housing are EXTREMELY large. The manual says between 0.008-0.020 inch gaps are in normal specs. My gaps could fit more than 0.025" feelers. However, the third and largest pickup, the NE pickup, was 0.013". Though this is within specs, it proves that the gap is getting larger. This makes perfect sense with the symptoms that have been going on. Let me explain my reasoning:
4) "Then about a little over a month ago, I notice that the idle at a stop light was lightly moving the RPM up and down -- almost fluttering." This was due to the distributor pickups becoming slightly over the 0.020" mark, but not enough to cause the engine to freak out like it has been.
5) A week or so after that, almost out of nowhere the car starts rumbling like crazy! I let go of the gas, it goes away. I push the gas pedal, it starts up again. I floor the gas, the problem completely goes away and doesn't come back for a few days. Then it comes back almost randomly.
Do the same thing, it goes away. Then the rumbling starts up again. It stays for a while, then I turn off the engine for an hour, it goes away. Often times this problem occurred after I exited the freeway after an hour of driving on it and getting off to go to work (so I'm on city streets). I never notice this problem on the freeway at RPM between 2000-3000.
7) "As a precaution, and turned out to be a necessity, I replaced the distributor cap and the air-cleaner hose. That helped somewhat for an hour or two. But still got the rumbling." Of course it helped a little now that more spark was being generated from the cap, but the distributor itself was still the problem. Never thought to look at the distributor itself.
8) "Then I get fed up and take it to the local dealer. Ready to pay $100 to get it diagnosed, the mechanic takes it for a test drive. Can't feel a thing wrong. Notices the engine mounts are broken probably. Also notices the idle is a little funny -- it's too high (around 1000 RPM) and it's moving a little." The fact that these symptoms came and went also proves that the distributor gaps were just not large enough yet.
"He said to try to get the engine mounts fixed and that the reason for the idle being weird needs to be determined first. He also informed me about the throttle stop screw and the electronically controlled idle." Once the engine mounts get fixed, the distributor housing is going to be replaced. I haven't done it yet -- nobody carries that kind of thing in stock. Also, if I didn't mention it before, I got the stop screw to be in the right place. The manual said something to the effect of it should just not have a gap between the screw and the throttle plate. That seems to have worked -- the idle was 750 RPM at middle temperatures during a test drive after the cleaning (though it moved somewhat).
10) "So I eventually ended up here at ToyotaNation.com. Apparently a lot of people suffer from vibrations due to an unknown cause - just different symptoms at different times. People have replaced everything and fixed lots of things, but nothing works. Around those posts, I noticed - hey, people are cleaning the throttle body a lot. Why don't I do that? So I did. It helped a little -- and also caused another condition to occur." I don't seem to remember anyone saying they replaced the distributor itself, just the cap. If anyone has any problems with vibrations/weird idles/phantom symptoms, check the distributor gaps between the teeth of the distributor and the metal contact. The book says 0.008-0.020" is in specs. Also, I don't know if cleaning caused something else to occur if it was just a coincidence. But I do know that cleaning the throttle body, IAC, etc. sure did help the computer and, most importantly, will help my smog numbers.
11) "The newest condition is the RPM's behavior -- now when I press the gas pedal it races up a little too slowly, and when I let go of the gas to coast the RPM gauge drops almost below 1000 RPM then perks back up to 1500 RPM. Note that this only occurs if it is below 2000 RPM before dropping. The shaking is also consistent now. My gas millage is also crappy - lost nearly 80 mi. to a tank." This is the symptom that makes the most sense to this discovery. Pressing the gas pedal increases the RPM of the engine, as well as the RPM of the distributor. The more those teeth on the distributor pass by the metal contact in a certain amount of time, there's more chance for the contact to be made. However, slowing down causes the converse: less chance for contact to be made, thus the RPM drops because there's no spark to burn the fuel. The computer then makes adjustments based on this information and caused the RPM to increase moments after it dropped - causing the bouncing effect of the RPM. The loss of gas milage confirms that much less gas was being burned. The shaking while pressing the gas pedal only really occurred between 1000-2100 RPM, and stopped above that. This was due to the RPM not being high enough on the distributor to make enough chance that the contact would be made. Once the car reached it, the engine had no misfire. The fact that the shaking got worse is also confirming the distributor problem. When I saw the pickups, the rubber looked melted. This means that some of the electricity was passing through the rubber, heating it up. Over time, shaking, heat, and freeway/city driving, those pickups took a lot of beating.
As I said, the distributor has not been replaced yet. It's around $140 (after I turn in the core) from Autozone for the distributor. Also, I'd like to get the engine mounts fixed first because those parts are already in. Hopefully this will be the end of this problem. Much thanks to everyone, especially Mike for leading me down this path. You all saved me hundreds of dollars of diagnosis from a mechanic. I'll let everyone know how it goes. If there are any other suggestions or comments, feel free to post.
Definitely interesting for sure. Thanks for the info.
My '92 I got through a friend and seems to have spent most of it's life through toyota leasing companies of one sort of other. The car is in pretty good shape for the most part though but just a few little things I've been taking care of. Haven't even deal with a proper tune up yet or the distributor but will see that everything is as it should be on that. Only real problem I seem to be having other than the IAC which cleaning seemed to do the trick, is it's leaking oil, seemingly from the valve covers. Front one I tightened as it was loose, but don't know how to properly get to the back one to do it. Going to replace the gaskets on them. Took one apart at the wreckers. Was surprised that they don't seem to use any RTV at all, only the rubber gasket. is this normal? [On a jeep RTV is used with a cork gasket so not sure about the camry] Then the only rust problem is he rear drivers side door which I'm just waiting to find a good one to replace it with. Other than that it's been a great car so far since I got it in dec. after the accident.
So much to learn though as it's like night and day from the inline6 engine.
Hello all, once again... "What to do now?" is the question. I've spent an entire week straight diagnosing and fixing things on this car of mine. Things are weird, let me explain.
As I said earlier, the distributor cap was changed, which eventually (after a post here) led me to changing the distributor itself. Luckily my dad changed it while I was away, and so that was done last night. This morning, I rechecked the old distributor's air gaps between pickups and distributor - they were actually within normal specs after all. It seems that the part of the distributor that makes contact is not the teeth of the gear but the protrusion behind that gear, sheesh. And the timing was fixed. It was at 15 degrees consistently versus the 0-10 degrees that the specs call for. So, after getting shocked a couple of times (this was due to a fix-it-quick thing that we did when the plastic caps for the ignition wires that connect to the distributor cap broke off, so we replaced it with metal wire, so when I stuck my hand down there to move the distributor a little to change the timing - zap!), the timing was done. At the time, the engine sounded great. The idle was good at 750 RPM, the engine sounded slower, so things were looking up. I took it for a test drive and it was great. The power was back, no lag at all, and, most important, little shaking and no idle bouncing! Yay! So what went wrong? About a few miles or so into it, the idle bouncing came back. Then a mile or two later, the shaking came back. Crap.
So, since the timing and new distributor seemed to have fixed the problem, I went back to the garage and checked the timing and the distributor. One of the distributor cap wires came off while driving! Argh. So I stuck it back on there, checked the timing (which was just where it should've been), then I started to check other systems. I checked the throttle position sensor (got a vacuum pump and ohm-meter), which checked out perfectly. Checked the vacuums around the throttle body, which were also good. Checked the resistance in the IAC, resistance & voltage in the MAF, and resistance in the cold-start idle sensor, all of which were just fine. So I took it for a test drive again, wanting to get some new ignition wires because of those awful shocks and the wires falling off. The problems seemed to be only slightly there, but it was better.
After getting and installing the spark plug wires (that is a total pain-in-the-butt job to do on a V6, don't ever do that by yourself in a normal household garage), the car was driven home after a week at my parents' house. Same thing again -- a mile or so, idle bouncing, another mile or so, shaking and sluggish. When I got home, I rechecked the ignition wires best I could in the semi-dark (no flashlight around), which were all in place.
Look everyone, this is starting to get annoying. I like fixing problems and all, but this is ridiculous.
So here are my questions for this post:
1) In a normally working V6 Toyota Camry (or any car for that matter), when you press the gas peddle lightly while you're traveling 30+ MPH, the RPM goes up. When you let go, the RPM should go down a little then gradually go down as the MPH goes down. Why does this occur? Is this a computer-programmed occurrence? Or is this a transmission thing? Since my car doesn't do what it's supposed to do, I would like to know why this is supposed to occur in a normal car.
2) If something gets fixed/changed in a car, the computer is supposed to read that something is working/different and must adjust the engine's operation to compensate, right? Is this the only real thing that changes, or do other electrical/fuel systems change as well? What I'm thinking is, every time I've changed/fixed something in my car then test drive it, it works great for a little bit then goes back to the way it was. I don't know why this is, but the only really dynamic thing in a car is the computer (as far as I understand). So can a computer actually give out?
3) Can a code be checked if there is no check engine light on? I asked a mechanic at Pep Boys and he said that he couldn't do it. I don't know if that's a normal thing or not, but that's what he said. I'd love to check to see what the codes are. Also, Kep said something about a sticking valve. That may be possible since my dad said something about this light knocking sound coming from the engine could be an offset valve (something like that). How do I get that fixed? Can valves be adjusted?
I'd appreciate some answers and comments. Please feel free to post away.
If the CE light isn't on, then the car's computer probably doesn't have any codes that would show up.
That, obviously, doesn't mean everything is fine and dandy.
And for the throttle cable screw, is there a line/notch or any kind of marking on the screw and the throttle body? If there is, those need to be lined up.
I am noticing a pattern in your comments. It sounds like right after you mess with the distributor and spark plug wires things get better for a short period and then revert back to bad. It's a stretch but maybe you're jostling something into place and then it vibrates back out. A wire? An air hose? A vacuum hose? Don't know. I was also taken aback when you said one of the spark plug wires fell off. I can't picture that with my I4 maybe the connection is different on a V6. Don't know.
You said it ran fine for a mile or so and then came back. Does this mean that for only the first run that this happens or does it happen every time that the engine starts cold?
Have you tried resetting the computer? (I think you can disconnect the battery for 15 mins to do this but I'm not sure on the OBIIs). If you did this and the engine got better for a bit and then got worse and then you did it again with the same results then you would suspect that some sensor is telling the computer to change its programming incorrectly.
I always thought that the OBDIIs could store codes before they caused a check engine light. You might try a different auto parts store. (Unless someone corrects me here first)
Kep
__________________
Often, it's the loose screw between the steering wheel and the driver's seat that needs to be fixed first!
"One of the distributor cap wires came off while driving!"
Just another hunch here. I have seen plug wires coming off while the engine is running destroy a coil in short order. Check the coil again. Check it's specs and then remove it from the distributor and inspect it carefully for cracks.
Thank you guys for keeping up with this thread. Just today I took it to a mechanic to get it diagnosed properly. According to the mechanic, there is a dead piston - #3 to be precise. He used a scope to check that out. According to him, all the wires and everything work fine. The spark plug looked worn, but when he changed the spark plug, the piston was still dead. According to his words, "In my opinion, the fuel injector is bad. It could be the computer, but it's probably the injector. It would end up costing more to check to see if it works or not than to just change it." I don't know about the computer and all, or how to check it. I'll probably end up changing the fuel injector to see if that's the problem.
Yeah, that pattern of it going away then coming back occurred to me too. I'm not really sure what's going on. The dead piston makes sense if the piston comes back to life in the middle of driving for some reason or another. I haven't tried resetting the computer yet. I will try that idea first, thanks. And the engine seems to be worse cold than warm, but it always shakes. The mechanic noticed that it was worse at lower speeds since it didn't do it while driving around town for him but only closer to idle when he slowly drove it into the garage to work on it.
As for the coils, Mike, are you referring to the pickup coils on the distributor? I looked at the manual and cannot find any mention of coils other than those. Or do you mean the ignition coils? I'm not really sure what you mean.
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Freakish Accelerator and Idle!
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