Air in brake system or bad master cylinder? Pedal goes almost to the floor..

[islandboy57]

Tonight I washed my mom's car, filled up gas, and stopped off at McDonald's. While in the drive through line (with my foot on the brake for 45-60 seconds), the car nudged a bit forward so my instict was to press the brakes harder but to my surprise it was almost to the ground. The brakes start off fine then gradually over a few minutes it will be almost at the floor but it still holds the car in place for the most part.

A few months ago I used the 'turkey baster method' to take some old brake fluid out and I refilled it. Maybe I wasn't careful enough and introduced some air into the system? Would that be apparent immediately or does it take some time?

Naturally I'm hoping it was my fault and the system just needs to be bled, rather than replace the master cylinder. Just out of curiousity, how long does a master cylinder usually last? The car is 13 years old w/ 83K miles, and V6 so it's got 4-wheel discs all around, no ABS. If anything it's about time to completely change all the brake fluid.

Here's some pics of where the fluid level is at (the car is on a slight incline so the fluid is tilted toward the back; fluid level has not changed since I refilled it after taking some old fluid out) and then the color. It's pretty dark so like I said, good time to get it all out!





I'm going to take the car in tomorrow to get fixed. I might have to drop it off at night and just leave it there so they can take a look at it the next morning.

[new echo owner]

It does look like it can use a brake fluid change, you may also want to ask them to inspect the brakes too. And check to make sure the calipers are not seized on their sliding pins.

By the way, don't think it has anything to do with what you had done. The brake pedal will actually go down fairly low if you press on it hard enough and long enough.

N.E.O.

[islandboy57]

Originally Posted by new echo owner

It does look like it can use a brake fluid change, you may also want to ask them to inspect the brakes too. And check to make sure the calipers are not seized on their sliding pins.

By the way, don't think it has anything to do with what you had done. The brake pedal will actually go down fairly low if you press on it hard enough and long enough.

N.E.O.

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it.

I'll ask them to check out the brakes. The last time the brakes were serviced.. Must be at least 4 years ago? They've squeaked since new; I'm guessing some cheap pads were put on. As far as braking power, they feel the same.

And I guess the reason why I was slightly alarmed is because I drive any car the same way. I'm not pressing super hard on the pedal when I'm stopped. So because my habits haven't changed, I got concerned. I do feel my gen 5.5's pedal go a tiny bit lower as I sit at a light but never this much.

Thanks again. I'll update once I found out what the diagnosis is and how much it's going to cost!

PS: At least I just did an oil change and I know the air filter is okay. If they change either of those two items you can bet I will not be going back there.

[camrytrippin]

the brakes chouldnt sqeek at all that is a lube job is for and theres a pin that moves with the pedal and after 100k there is rust build up at the end of this tube that the pin slides in and if you bust through were the end sell that is atached to the pin will get torn to shit if it gets punched through and that just happens sone time like your best bet is get a remanufactured master if that is the case but yea let me know what happend.

[islandboy57]

Got the car back today.. The damage? $1121.73

Front brake pad set w/ shims - $73.90
Rear brake pad set w/ shims - $65.90
Front brake disc rotors - $71.68 ea (2)
Rear brake disc rotors - $87.90 ea (2)
Rear brake shoe set - $44.40
BG brake kit/silencer - $15.00 ea (2)
Brake master cylinder - $179.00
DOT 3 brake fluid - $4.00
Brake cleaner - $6.95 ea (2)
Shop supplies - $16.00

Labor for "complete 4 wheel disc brake service" is $240.00, labor for replacing the brake master cylinder is $120.00. There's a discount of $40.00 for labor because of the overlap.

Thoughts?

The car feels much better. No more squeaky brakes! The head mechanic mentioned he picked up a '93 Camry I4 in rough shape so he got it cheap and fixed it up. He looked at my mom's car and goes, "..but it doesn't look like that!" - I had just washed my mom's car so it was like a shiny mirror.

My mom is fine with the bill. $500-1000 per year in routine maintenance and unplanned repairs is about what her car is averaging. She hasn't had a car payment in 10+ years so she's going to keep it that way for as long as possible. Doesn't hurt that her car is in tip top shape

EDIT: The brake fluid is nice and clear/yellowish now. It looked like mud before, yuck.

[rty]

That's how much drilled rotors for a BMW cost.

[new echo owner]

How many brake service has the car had previously? For a car with 83k, it is a little early to be needing front rotors, unless the front brakes had been done a few times prior and the rotors were machined. Same for the rears. The shims for the brake pads don't usually needed to be replaced when a brake job is perfromed, they are not exactly wear items, they are replace when they are damaged. By the way, why were rear brake shoes replaced, they are only for the parking brakes, they never wear, unless the car was driven with the park brakes on?

Having said all that, it is better to have a safe and functioning car than having to worry about what may happen, this is especially true for a love one. Glad that you had the car fixed up for your Mom.

It is actually a good idea to have the brake fluid change about every two years, the fluid absorbs mositure, one of the reason why it changes color.

N.E.O.

[jaybur_racing]

did the tech tape a pair of his shoes to your car? If you have rear rotors, and you payed for a rear pad set, then what is the charge for rear shoes?? Rear "shoes" would be if you had brake drums. Go get $44 back.

also wondering what the "silencer" would be, if the brake pads came with "shims" that is normally the silencing material.

according to those prices, they saw you coming from a mile away.

I hate shops that do that. I am kind of surprised they didn't want to replace all four calipers (although for the price you paid, you could have)

[new echo owner]

The shoes are for the parking brakes, they are located in the middle of the rear disc.

N.E.O.

[jaybur_racing]

oh ok, I didn't realize the camry's did that. I have seen that before on other vehicles. But still, $44?? they must have had a $30 mark up on them!

[islandboy57]

Originally Posted by new echo owner

How many brake service has the car had previously? For a car with 83k, it is a little early to be needing front rotors, unless the front brakes had been done a few times prior and the rotors were machined. Same for the rears. The shims for the brake pads don't usually needed to be replaced when a brake job is perfromed, they are not exactly wear items, they are replace when they are damaged. By the way, why were rear brake shoes replaced, they are only for the parking brakes, they never wear, unless the car was driven with the park brakes on?

Having said all that, it is better to have a safe and functioning car than having to worry about what may happen, this is especially true for a love one. Glad that you had the car fixed up for your Mom.

It is actually a good idea to have the brake fluid change about every two years, the fluid absorbs mositure, one of the reason why it changes color.

N.E.O.

Hmm, the car is a '95 and was bought in '96. The last brake job I remember must have been around 2000-2002 - I can't remember how much it cost but I'm sure it wasn't this much so they must have just replaced the pads and resurfaced the rotors.

The rear shoes were replaced because (as you pointed out, it's for the parking brake on models with 4-wheel disc brakes) they claimed there was a chunk of it missing. It is the original and I guess after 13 years in humid Hawaii sitting in the sun, it wouldn't surprise me if it rotted. Or is that not really possible?

[islandboy57]

Originally Posted by jaybur_racing

according to those prices, they saw you coming from a mile away.

I know they are on the high end. I just like that they finish their work in one day and that they're five minutes from home. There's an even closer service station but they take 2-3 days for stuff like an alternator. Meanwhile the place we go to now can do a timing belt and water pump (plus all associated idlers, pullies, belts, gaskets etc.) job in one day.

Still - I would much rather do what I can on my own, which I do. Next up for my car is cleaning the TB and IAC valve.. Once I figure out how to disassemble the airbox and get access to the TB

[new echo owner]

Well, usually if it had only one brake job in the past, there is a very good chance that the rotors are can still be resurfaced; however, without measuring the old ones, no one can really tell. If you still have the old parts, you can compare them with the spec.

The parking brake shoes are particlely enclosed inside the rear disc, it would be almost impossible for them to be exposed to the elements unless you drive it into 1 ft of water all the time.

N.E.O.

[islandboy57]

Originally Posted by new echo owner

Well, usually if it had only one brake job in the past, there is a very good chance that the rotors are can still be resurfaced; however, without measuring the old ones, no one can really tell. If you still have the old parts, you can compare them with the spec.

The parking brake shoes are particlely enclosed inside the rear disc, it would be almost impossible for them to be exposed to the elements unless you drive it into 1 ft of water all the time.

N.E.O.

I think it was just one brake job in the past? My mom told them if the pads/rotors were more on the worn side, to just replace them rather than having to come back again next year. They very well could have been within spec.

Interesting about the parking brake shoes. The car hasn't been driven with the parking brake on - it keeps the car in place if you shift it into drive with the parking brake on and your foot off the brake. If you give it some gas I'm sure it would go but you'd feel the parking brake.

I guess this service station (for their own benefit mostly) errs on the side of preventative maintenance. My aunt goes to another mechanic who I've spoken with [thinking about taking my car there] but he's too much on the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" side of things. My aunt said her CEL came on and he told her to just keep driving it and come down later in the week when he had time to look at it. It could have been something more severe so I don't really like that. I don't consider an '04 Accord tripping the CEL to be normal!

Anyway.. I just need to learn how to do more stuff on my own. My mom hasn't volunteered her car for me to practice on and mine is a bit new. I need to find someone getting rid of an older Camry or Accord for cheap just to tinker with

[new echo owner]

Having a little knowledge of what is going on with your car is certainly a good way to go nowadays.

Well, short off making car repair as a career, finding and fiddling around with older car is a good way to learn about them.

Good Luck,

N.E.O.