HELP! very confusing timing problem

[nbkielsm]

So about a week ago i noticed some coolant dripping from the water pump, I go to the store to get one and figure what the heck ill replace the timing belt while im at it because im not sure when it was last replaced. I take everything apart, get the new belt,water pump, and for good measure new alternator and PS belts installed, put it back together and fire it up. It runs but not well, very rough idle. so i assume i must have the belt a tooth or two away from perfect alignment. Round 2 i take it all apart again and in the process realize i didn't have the camshaft at proper TDC ( couple marks that looked right) my mistake but no biggie cause i know this is a non interference type engine ( maybe i should at this point mention that the engine is a 5S-FE in a 96 camry) so i place the cam shaft at TDC again but when i go to put the crank shaft at TDC... I CAN'T i can get it to within about a half an inch to the right of the 0 mark, and to about the 10 degree mark on the left side!!! I tried to make sure that there was no interference from the valves, the camshaft still turns fine, so i assume thats all fine, i made sure the spark plugs are out so its not a compression issue. I tried Cranking on that bolt even with a breaker bar, nothing. Heres where it gets wierd, in desperation i tried turning it over with the ignition, and that works fine, no wierd noise, no apparent resistance at all. so what i ask myself could account for that... finally i decide that i must be dealing with a broken tooth on the flywheel and that it is stopping when the broken tooth fails to engage the starter motor and the next tooth hits the top of the starter motors tooth (that is a little bit mind numbing but...) so i have a look at the fly wheel. And as far as i can see there is nothing wrong with it, no broken teeth, no damaged teeth... not even a cavity. So i am completely at the end of my rope, i have no idea what could cause it and everyone i talk to with any car knowlege at all, has no idea and has never even heard of such a thing before. Please Help Me!!!

p.s. i will get your name tattooed on my face if you can help me

[frenum49]

So with a wrench or whatever you are using on the crank bolt the engine will not turn clockwise at all? Or do you mean that the crank bolt turns but the pulley does not like the bolt is stripped or the key on the crank is hashed? There should be nothing keeping you from turning the bottom end by hand accept compression which will just make it a little bit harder until you pass the stroke. If it is the case that you just cant turn the engine by hand.........??? Pull the plugs. Hydrolocked? Not likely unless you have mistaken a bad head gasket for a leaking water pump.......How long did you drive it with the timing off? Still not likely to cause major mechanical damage to the bottom end. I guess you could pull the starter to make sure it is not binding. Also I assume you have the auto trans here, torque converter bolt loose? Again not likely. Valve cover may need to come off just to make sure you do not have a broken spring or something. But again not likely. You wrote that the strter cranks the bottom end just fine then you should have no problems turning it over by hand.

[nbkielsm]

Originally Posted by frenum49

So with a wrench or whatever you are using on the crank bolt the engine will not turn clockwise at all? Or do you mean that the crank bolt turns but the pulley does not like the bolt is stripped or the key on the crank is hashed?

No, it does turn clockwise, but only until the TDC mark on the pulley is about a 1/2" from the 0 mark on the timing belt cover, the bolt is fine i can tighten and loosen it.

Originally Posted by frenum49

There should be nothing keeping you from turning the bottom end by hand accept compression which will just make it a little bit harder until you pass the stroke. If it is the case that you just cant turn the engine by hand.........??? Pull the plugs.

the plugs are out, i made this mistake but a friend suggested that so i pulled them out

Originally Posted by frenum49

Hydrolocked? Not likely unless you have mistaken a bad head gasket for a leaking water pump.......How long did you drive it with the timing off?

that is a possibility i hadn't considered but it seems like it wouldn't come to as abrupt a stop as it seems to be, i will look into this. I didn't drive with the timing belt off i just decided to replace it when i was doing the water pump. i did run the engine for about 10 seconds or so after the first attepmt but as soon as i decided the timing was off i shut it off and thats when this problem started.

Originally Posted by frenum49

Also I assume you have the auto trans here, torque converter bolt loose? Again not likely. Valve cover may need to come off just to make sure you do not have a broken spring or something. But again not likely. You wrote that the strter cranks the bottom end just fine then you should have no problems turning it over by

you are correct it is a manual i was thinking of pulling the starter out but it seemed unlikely to me because its the one thing that can turn the crank. maybe i will anyway, b/c i seem to be running out of options. any solution to hydrolocking? i have never dealt with that. thank you for the input as well this helps alot!

Nick

[frenum49]

Well if all the plugs are out and still cant turn the crank then you are not hydrolocking. I thought this might be the case if one of your pistons was full of coolant, ie, bad head gasket. Is it possible that you dropped a bolt or nut or tool down into one of the spark plug holes and into the cylinder? If you were missing a nut or a socket this might be the case. I would fish around in the cylinder with a magnet, see if you come up with anything. Try pulling the starter first.

[nbkielsm]

Thank you i will definitely do that i hadn't even thought of that, i don't think im missing anything but honestly who could tell. Thanks again

[new echo owner]

Didn't you say you turn the engine over with the starter? Was it making any noise when you did that? How far is the engine apart right now, is the front timing cover completely off, both lower and upper?

N.E.O.

[nbkielsm]

yeah the starter can turn the engine over and its not making any wierd noise. but when i go to do it by hand. Nothing, and i have really cranked on it im about 5'10" 220 so im no pixie but that thing won't budge but the starter seems to have no trouble... thats why i thought maybe a missing tooth on the flywheel but it looks fine. i have the valve cover off now, both upper and lower timing belt covers are off and the timing belt itself is off in adition to the alternator

[new echo owner]

You have trying turning both directions, right? Can you make a full turn out of it? With the valve cover, can you see if any of the buckets looks like it is a little lower than the others? Because it sounds like you may have a bent valve.

N.E.O.

[frenum49]

Originally Posted by new echo owner

You have trying turning both directions, right? Can you make a full turn out of it? With the valve cover, can you see if any of the buckets looks like it is a little lower than the others? Because it sounds like you may have a bent valve.

N.E.O.

It does sound like a bent valve. However these are non-interference engines. They don't bend valves unless you have a broken spring or keeper. He has the valve cover off. Should see something like this immediately.

[new echo owner]

Shims over buckets aren't always easy to see unless he is looking for it, and they are all underneath the cams.

It is hard to say, it is possible that he had a broken valve spring and the piston had hit the valve. I am just wondering if the sound of the piston hitting something when the engine was cranked over with the starter was missed. If the plugs were out, the sound might have been covered up by the air coming out the spark plug holes.

N.E.O.

[skylers]

Originally Posted by new echo owner

Shims over buckets aren't always easy to see unless he is looking for it, and they are all underneath the cams.

It is hard to say, it is possible that he had a broken valve spring and the piston had hit the valve. I am just wondering if the sound of the piston hitting something when the engine was cranked over with the starter was missed. If the plugs were out, the sound might have been covered up by the air coming out the spark plug holes.

N.E.O.

I had similar problem when replacing timing belt on 93. i just want to clarify one thing though. it seems that the crankshart can't be hand turn for one revolution in any direction with the belt off.

if that is the case it is the same problem i had.

Give each cylinder good air blast when the piston almost at TDC. it works for me and hopefully will get yours free. the only differnt is i did not use the starter to crank the engine after it is stuck. the starter has much more power than we think that is capable to lose the crankshaft bolt.
wish you luck and post back the result so we all can learn.

[new echo owner]

With the spark plugs out the engine should be fairly easy to turn over, even if the timing belt is off.

N.E.O.