94 Camry - won't start - electrical problem

[eaglemtn]

I have a problem that came up and I'm not sure what happened.

It started out with the job to remove the lock cylinder from the driver's door so that it could get fixed. I was able to remove the lock cylinder, took it to a locksmith, and had it repaired. I drove home, had to park in the driveway, move another car out of the garage, and then put the camry in the garage to put the lock cylinder back in (it's 20 degrees outside).

When I went back in the car to move it into the garage, I was ready to start the car, and then it wouldn't start. I can't remember exactly what happened, but the interior lights were on and the dash lights, but then suddenly they went off. I'm pretty sure I had the key in the ignition when this happened, and the car wouldn't start. I wasn't able to move the gear selector out of park even when pressing down on the brake. After taking the key out, and seeing what might be going on, the interior lights were on really dim.

I wasn't sure why the battery would be suddenly dying. I took off the positive cable and checked the voltage. It's at like 12.6 volts.

Is there something with the lock cylinder job that messed up something? I unplugged the connector to the power door/window switches on the inner panel, but I did not unplug the connectors to the electric door lock (I did do this now).

A couple of questions I have:

1. How can I get the car into neutral so that I can push it into the garage?
2. Is it OK to try to jump start the car to see what might happen?
3. Did I somehow discharge the battery when doing the lock cylinder operation even though I did some errands and was able to start it several times?

Any insights would be much appreciated.

Thanks

[eaglemtn]

One other thing, when I tried to turn on the headlights when this was happening (to see what might work), I heard a chattering/clicking sound (relays?) and no lights came on.

[toyomoho]

To get the car out of Park look on the shift console plate having all the shift gear letters for a small plastic tab (cap). The area would near the shifter arm when in Park. Remove the tab and insert the ign key or a flat blade screwdriver to push a small tab down. When pushing down move the shifter out of Park.

The shifter will move through all gears without needing to hold the tab down but if placed into Park you will need to press the tab again.

You can jump start the car. Install the positive battery cable on the positive battery terminal then ground the negative cable to the cars chassis. A internet Google search will provide info on doing this.

Make sure you connect the right cable to the right battery terminal. Positive to positive, don't reverse the cables or you will damage the electrical system.

Suggest you have the engine off in the car with the battery that will be used to apply power. On your car turn the headlights on before starting the engine as this will dampen any electrical load spikes.

You could have left on an interior light, trunk light, etc. If you unplugged the connector to the power door you should be OK.

Does the engine turn over but not start?

12.6v is not that low, a dead batter would be 12.2ish and under. 12.8 is about 100% charge.

Have you checked the battery cable for corrosion or damage as this can cause currant flow issues.

If you have an amp meter check for current drain by removing one battery cable and placing the amp meter into series with the circuit. Make sure all the cars accessories are off and the door is closed.

Power for the door lock runs through the 30A Power fuse. If the current draw is too high say over 40ma try pulling the fuse and determining if the load drops.

[eaglemtn]

I have some updates - still not sure what is going on.

I decided to try to jump start the car. This worked, so I thought maybe the battery had gone bad or I had left on some light. I decided to drive it around the block. As I was driving, I went over the bumps and noticed the lights dimmed a bit. I thought that was strange. I went a little further and turned on the brights. As soon as I did that, the entire power to the car went off and the car died.

I jump started the car again and decided to try to get it back home and would do it without the lights (about 2 blocks). I jump-started the car again and everything seemed to work OK. I started back home, and when I pressed the brake hard, the car shut down again.

I jump started the car again, and was going to try to get back home without using the lights and just the emergency brake. I made it back to the garage. In the garage, before I shut it off, I tried the radio, dome light, and heater fans - and it all worked. I turned on the headlights, - aok - then switched on the brights. At that point, the car shut down. If turning on the brights had worked, I was going to press the brake. I never put the car into park and left it in neutral so I can move it.

When the car shuts down, the entire electrical system turns off. After it's off, if I open the door, I see the "door open'' indicator light up on the dashboard, and the light around the key turns on dimly. The interior light will turn on very dim. It sure looks like the battery is not good, but why does the car shut down when I press the brake or turn on the brights?

When I did the door lock cylinder removal, I disconnected the cable that went from the door to the inside door panel (control for power windows and locks), but did not disconnect the wires which went to the actual lock mechanism. I did notice when I was removing the outside door handle, the actuator rod would move and the lock would engage or disengage. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with it.

Thanks for all your help.

[toyomoho]

If you can, swap batteries with the other car and go for a drive. A dieing battery can cause strange issues with the car including engine dieing. When you turn on the headlights you may be drawing too much power and as a results the engine dies.

The other issue is the alternator should be producing enough power if the engine is over 1500 RPM. Does the engine die at higher RPM's?

The strange part is when you hit the bumps or brakes the problem happens, this is not normal for a dieing battery. The jarring may be causing something to move and disconnect the power.

The window and door wiring is one circuit among many. To totally shut off all the power to car there would need to be a break in the wiring near the battery. If you just disconnected the actuator rod and it move one way or the other with the switch it should not be causing a problem.

Suggest you get the car running and lights on then start moving, jarring items like the battery, battery cables (also check the battery ground cable), wiring from the battery, etc. Simulate that bump or brake movement.

Check the battery cables for corrosion and damage including grounds.

[new echo owner]

Your alternator may not be charging, you are running on battery power that is why your engine stalls when you step on the brakes or increase the electric load. Check to see if you have any blown fuse that may cause the alternator to fail to charge. It may also be possible that your alternator have failed. Not necessarily has anything with what you were doing, just co-incident.

N.E.O.

[eaglemtn]

Thank you toyomoho and n.e.o for your comments and suggestions.

I will check the alternator fuse. I have a voltmeter, so should I check the voltage across the battery once I jump-start the car - and when turning on some accessories (like fans, headlights, etc.) and see if the voltage drops? I'm assuming if the alternator is working, the voltage should remain fairly constant? I'll also try bumping the car some in the garage when I get it running. The batteries are not the same size, so I'm not sure I should try that out.

Is there any other way to determine if the alternator is working?

I put the lock cylinder back in and the door wiring is all connected again. The door lock works fine now, but unfortunately the new problem is not a fun one.

[new echo owner]

Check the voltage of the battery you jump it and then check it again after the engine is running. If the alternator is working, the voltage would increase when the engine is running; otherwise, it might actually decrease. Another way of testing if the alternator is working is by disconnecting the battery when the engine is running. The engine will continue to run if the alternator is putting out sufficient voltage and amperage.

N.E.O.

[eaglemtn]

The car is back working again, but I have no idea why it is.

My first step today was to check out the battery, and then the alternator. I removed the battery and took it to a battery retailer to have it checked out. The battery was fine - even when checked with a load on it. I was kind of hoping they would find a bad battery. I came home, cleaned the battery terminals, and then reinstalled the battery. The next step was to check the alternator - either in the car or remove it and take it to a parts store.

After installing the battery and getting into the car, I noticed that the dash lights looked much brighter. I turned the key and the car started. I turned on the headlights and then other electrical loads, and the car remained running. I turned it off - checked the battery voltage (about 12.7 V) - and then started the car (it worked again) and checked the battery voltage (about 14.4 V). It appears that the alternator was working - and the charging circuit warning lamp was not on.

I drove it around the block - no problems - and then heading to the parts store to get the battery and charging circuit checked. The tester confirmed that the battery and alternator was OK. The test included starting the car, turning on electrical loads, and revving the engine.

So right now, everything appears to be working, but I'm a bit wary as to why everything works now. Was it an intermittent problem that may stop the car again? Any thoughts on what might have been happening? Do I have some short in the system?

[new echo owner]

I think you had already answer your own questions; you had clean the terminals when you re-install the battery. During the cold weather months, clean and tight battery connections are essential for everything to work properly.

Well, glad to hear you have it back on the road again!

Enjoy your ride, and drive safe!

N.E.O.

[eaglemtn]

Thanks n.e.o - I'm just wondering - if it was the integrity of the battery connections that solved the problem, why would the car have died once the car started up (through the jump start)? Doesn't the alternator provide the electrical power at that point?

[new echo owner]

Are you referring to the original situation when you had jump started the car and drove it around?

The alternator does provide power once the engine starts. And I can't really say why the engine would died then. I can only speculate. On high mileage vehicle, when the brushes in the alternator wears down, it might not charge from time to time but would test good.

Don't really have a good answer for you. A vehicle with excess load can sometime overload the electrical system too, but not very common. BTW, how many miles on the car?

N.E.O.

[eaglemtn]

There are 159K miles on the car.

Yes, I was referring to the situation where the car was running and, as I was driving around, the entire electrical system appeared to shut down. For awhile, I'll probably not want to take the car far from home. There just seems like something else might be wrong.

[new echo owner]

The only possibility that I can think of is the condition I had described about the alternator, which cause the vehicle to run on battery power and may happen without any warning light. Unfortunately, the only way to check is to remove and disassemble the alternator or check it when it is actually acting up. At 159K, that is highly possible but not necessary the only cause. I would suggest keeping an eye on it and see.

N.E.O.

[eaglemtn]

Thanks N.E.O. for your insights and advice. I'll just have to watch for any signs of trouble, and keep in mind that the alternator might have to be checked. If I don't get back on this thread in the next few months, that's a good sign!