New theory for gen3/4/5 rear camber adjustment

[Gibson99]

What you are looking at is the right rear suspension of a gen3. It's the same on the left. It's pretty much the same on gen4 & 5 and probably 6, as well as avalon and solara. Notice how the front control rod does NOT have the adjuster in the middle, but it looks like it's pretty much the same length as the aft control rod.

Here's my idea: It looks like it would be really easy to swap out the fixed rod for an adjustable one (just buy two more aft/adjustable ones from the same gen vehicle as yours). This would give you control over both camber and toe. Granted, it's not going to give you a LOT of camber adjustment, but it ought to be more than the tiny amount you can get by loosening the two lower strut bolts and moving the knuckle (which is usually only about 0.3 degrees from one extreme to the other), and it would seem to be stronger than using crash bolts in the lower strut mount. This theory really isn't much different from how the miata's rear lower A-arms work - it has eccentric bolts on the inner pivot points, and all they really do is push or pull on one corner of the lower part of the knuckle, and that's how you adjust camber and toe. However, since the upper pivot point is so much higher in a mac strut setup than it is in a double-wishbone setup, you won't get as much camber adjustment here. Plus you need to be careful to not try to get too much negative camber and over-extend the rods to the point that they're only hanging on by a few threads. Any alignment technician who actually knows what he/she is doing should be able to figure it out pretty quick though.

In theory, this should be very useful to people who have too much negative camber in the rear with extreme lowering, and it wouldn't cause rubbing because it's pulling the bottom of the tire in rather than pushing the top of the tire out.

Has anyone already done this and tried it out? Results? For those of you that haven't, what do you think of my theory? I haven't gotten under there with a measuring tape or anything, but it looks like it should be a simple bolt-on with no modifications necessary, and you'll just need to educate your alignment shop that camber is now adjustable since no other camry normally has that ability. Hopefully if you're toying with rear camber adjustments, you also have a good relationship with your alignment shop, so they won't laugh at you when you tell them that.

[Eye8Pussies]

that's a very interesting idea, gibson and well worth the effort for somebody who may have to replace their control arm, so they may as well replace it with an adjustable one

I'd say that as long as the threads are identical (and I wouldn't see why not), it wouldn't be a problem


for the ppl who would really need this, which would be the ppl with coilovers sine no other springs drop so low that you'd need actual camber adjustment, luckily, the camber adjustment ability is quite decent in the rear due to the long slots for the hub bolts.

this would be a great idea for those ppl who have negative or positive camber in the rear for some reason and shops can't fix it (I know that I had that one one side for some reason...never knew why...all the control arms looked fine too).


And good to see that you're still around gibson, and back in the camry community



it was your first attempt with the gen3 and the trd supercharger that showed that the blower would fit with pretty much no modifications that led me on my path with my gen3 with my blower (took a bit, but figured out all the problems that you had! and then did my tranny swap to create my decently fast camry

[Gibson99]

Originally Posted by Eye8Pussies

I'd say that as long as the threads are identical (and I wouldn't see why not), it wouldn't be a problem

Actually, there are no threads at the ends of the control rod, since it's just a bushing. There's just one really long bolt going through each end - you can see the side of the bolt on the knuckle/hub at the bottom. Probably the most difficult part of it would be the inner one. Again, i haven't looked, but in that photo it looks like it's the nut at the back, not the head of the bolt, so that means the bolt would have to go forward to get it out. That means you have to either drop the gas tank or drop the subframe. I'd choose subframe since it's lighter and easier to manipulate, plus you don't have to move the exhaust. Of course, it's not so easy to remove the subframe without an impact!

Originally Posted by Eye8Pussies

for the ppl who would really need this, which would be the ppl with coilovers sine no other springs drop so low that you'd need actual camber adjustment, luckily, the camber adjustment ability is quite decent in the rear due to the long slots for the hub bolts.

I actually do have coilovers on my 98, but since I drive it daily, often have passengers and/or cargo or even a trailer hooked up, I need rear suspension travel. Plus I don't personally care for the "slammed" look. Therefore I don't have any camber wear issues in the rear. I don't know what the specs are set to right now, but after autocrossing it, I could do with a little less understeer, and getting rid of some rear negative camber could help with that without making it unstable under braking. Ever driven a car with zero toe-in on the rear axle? Talk about a nervous-feeling car! Even on my miata I have 0.10 degrees toe-in at the rear for stability.

Originally Posted by Eye8Pussies

it was your first attempt with the gen3 and the trd supercharger that showed that the blower would fit with pretty much no modifications that led me on my path with my gen3 with my blower (took a bit, but figured out all the problems that you had! and then did my tranny swap to create my decently fast camry

i'm glad my experience was not a total waste and that others benefitted from it. too bad i didn't have the funds to do all the mods i wanted. tranny swap was the next big one i wanted to do but never got to it - i bought the miata instead . On the 98 I have now, there are a few things I want to do to make it a little more polished (and cure the check engine light)... I'm thinking about designing something to fake out the ECU since it doesn't have an EGR system. The gen4 EGR system is a bit more complex, and the simple resistor fix isn't enough, since there is actually an EGR position sensor that gen3 didn't have, and so it's monitoring it much more closely. Considering that, I might actually want to try to put the EGR system back on... but that won't be easy since i have custom headers which don't have a connection for the EGR system... Oh, and I still need to pull the s/c and lower manifold to replace a blown knock sensor and repair the damaged wiring... fun fun!

What screen name did you go by back when I originally did the s/c? I think I would have remembered a name as unique as yours! Maybe Ratko? i remember he lived up north (not sure if it was in CA or not) and i remember the tranny swap on his car...

[Eye8Pussies]

ah, I forgot that it was bushings at the end...

and yeah, I can see your point even with coilovers depending on what you're looking for though. personally, I deal with the harsher ride and lack of suspension travel as price I pay for the way that my car is setup. at the moment, 300whp should be achievable by spring, and at around 255-265whp, I'm already having plenty of problems with traction once the rear squats during launch, even from a roll, so higher spring rates are almost a must.

but by the same token, I'm not going to be shooting for autocrossing, I've done tracking in my/sister's supercharged solara because unfortunately, my car wasn't ready at the time (I was rebuilding the front end after an accident), so given the way a high speed track is ran with wider corners than in autox, camber is what I need instead of toe.


as for me, naw, I actually joined up...probably right after you were leaving the scene or around there. I knew ratko and dickson personally in Toronto though and we used to chill and go out for drinks until they both kinda fell out of the toyota scene.

and haha...yeah...you proved that the supercharger would fit, otherwise I wouldn't have spent the money on one just to try it myself...but here we are, you showed that it fit, I showed that a gen3 can put down some serious numbers with serious work, and now there are actually 2 other supercharged gen3s running around and soon to be a 4th, and I've learned how to make each setup more efficient than the last as we've done these installs. You started quite a wave many years ago

[Venom_5]

if u had coilovers, u would already have several degrees of camber adjustability ...

[Tom 2000]

Originally Posted by Gibson99

What you are looking at is the right rear suspension of a gen3. It's the same on the left. It's pretty much the same on gen4 & 5 and probably 6, as well as avalon and solara. Notice how the front control rod does NOT have the adjuster in the middle, but it looks like it's pretty much the same length as the aft control rod.

Here's my idea: It looks like it would be really easy to swap out the fixed rod for an adjustable one (just buy two more aft/adjustable ones from the same gen vehicle as yours). This would give you control over both camber and toe. Granted, it's not going to give you a LOT of camber adjustment, but it ought to be more than the tiny amount you can get by loosening the two lower strut bolts and moving the knuckle (which is usually only about 0.3 degrees from one extreme to the other), and it would seem to be stronger than using crash bolts in the lower strut mount. This theory really isn't much different from how the miata's rear lower A-arms work - it has eccentric bolts on the inner pivot points, and all they really do is push or pull on one corner of the lower part of the knuckle, and that's how you adjust camber and toe. However, since the upper pivot point is so much higher in a mac strut setup than it is in a double-wishbone setup, you won't get as much camber adjustment here. Plus you need to be careful to not try to get too much negative camber and over-extend the rods to the point that they're only hanging on by a few threads. Any alignment technician who actually knows what he/she is doing should be able to figure it out pretty quick though.

In theory, this should be very useful to people who have too much negative camber in the rear with extreme lowering, and it wouldn't cause rubbing because it's pulling the bottom of the tire in rather than pushing the top of the tire out.

Has anyone already done this and tried it out? Results? For those of you that haven't, what do you think of my theory? I haven't gotten under there with a measuring tape or anything, but it looks like it should be a simple bolt-on with no modifications necessary, and you'll just need to educate your alignment shop that camber is now adjustable since no other camry normally has that ability. Hopefully if you're toying with rear camber adjustments, you also have a good relationship with your alignment shop, so they won't laugh at you when you tell them that.

I haven't done it, but the rear suspension a 3rd gen Maxima is similar (arms are a lot shorter) and others have done it on that car.

Here's some more pics I found.





It's good to see you're still around. I still remember you from when you had your 1988 Camry in Camryman.org. I remember when you installed the instument cluster with a tachometer, replaced the seats. I also remember with your '95 when you installed Sylvania Cool Blues (man, that was a long time ago...) and I think you did a carputer. Also, you changed the center panel in the rear with a blacked out one.

[Gibson99]

Originally Posted by Venom_5

if u had coilovers, u would already have several degrees of camber adjustability ...

you'd have it in the front if you had something like k-sports, but with just simple ground controls like mine which still sit on OE-style struts, there is no more camber adjustability than stock... which means almost none. And even WITH k-sports you still wouldn't get rear camber adjustment.

[Gibson99]

Originally Posted by Tom 2000

I haven't done it, but the rear suspension a 3rd gen Maxima is similar (arms are a lot shorter) and others have done it on that car.

if the adjuster wasn't so close to the center, i'd say that was a camry suspension i was looking at, it looks so similar. The arms actually look about the same length since they connect to the rear subframe very close together at the center of the car.

Originally Posted by Tom 2000

It's good to see you're still around. I still remember you from when you had your 1988 Camry in Camryman.org. I remember when you installed the instument cluster with a tachometer, replaced the seats. I also remember with your '95 when you installed Sylvania Cool Blues (man, that was a long time ago...) and I think you did a carputer. Also, you changed the center panel in the rear with a blacked out one.

Man some of you guys either have been looking at my website, or you have really good memories! I had forgotten about swapping in a tach in the old 88! One of these days I plan to do a carputer in the 98 I have now. And retrofit factory cruise... And replace the front struts... And... and... yeah we all know how that goes... *shrug*

[freeyellow2000]

Well speak of the devil... Here is a link I found very interesting

DIY Home Alignment


added links:

Everything Auto: DIY Wheel Alignment by Tom Morr

DIY 4 Wheel Alignment by toecutter

DIY wheel alignment @ Opelgt.com

[Gibson99]

Good find! It's not a bad write-up, though I have some comments:

1) after jacking up and then lowering the car, you need to roll it back and forth a few feet in each direction to get the suspension to settle and get back to normal camber numbers. If the tires are still kinda squished in at the bottom, it won't let the car down to normal ride height, and your numbers will be off.

2) as long as you have symmetrical tires and something other than total slicks, you can easily hook the end of the tape measure on a tire groove and measure to the other tire's matching groove to set toe - no need to scribe a line in the tire. That's how we did it at DeLorean (we didn't have an alignment rack of our own), and sometimes we verified our numbers at an alignment shop afterwards - rarely was it off by more than 1-2 tenths of a degree, and that's really saying something for the old tape-measure method! Granted, the alignment rack is about 1000x faster and easier, but when you don't have one, this is plenty good. Don't forget to roll the car back and forth again after each adjustment to let the tires relax from their tensioned state. If you have turn/slide plates, there's no need to roll the car at all. Also don't forget to center the steering wheel every now and then during your alignment.

Measuring caster actually isn't too hard either, but you have to make sure the rear wheels are set back the same distance from the front of the car first. pick a common point on the center of the car, towards the front... say... the tail shaft of a rwd's tranny, or a point that you know to be horizontally centered on the front subframe. measure from that point back to each rear wheel and make sure they're the same. Once you know this is set right, you can just measure from the hub of the rear wheel to the hub of the front wheel. This won't tell you how much caster you have, but it will at least let you get it set the same on both sides of the car, so it will drive straight, and the steering will feel the same whether you turn left or right.

[Venom_5]

Originally Posted by Gibson99

you'd have it in the front if you had something like k-sports, but with just simple ground controls like mine which still sit on OE-style struts, there is no more camber adjustability than stock... which means almost none. And even WITH k-sports you still wouldn't get rear camber adjustment.

um, you definitely have camber adjustment on all 4 corners with coilovers ... including my k-sports ... not only are there camber-plate-style mounts up top but the lower bolts attach into a notched hole which can adjust camber

im not quite sure what ur talking about

[Gibson99]

Originally Posted by Venom_5

um, you definitely have camber adjustment on all 4 corners with coilovers ... including my k-sports ... not only are there camber-plate-style mounts up top but the lower bolts attach into a notched hole which can adjust camber

im not quite sure what ur talking about

I'm talking about the basic ground control coilovers i have. They still use an OE-style strut assembly and upper strut mount, so there's no more camber adjustment than stock. Also, as far as I've read, the rear struts on the k-sports and D2's don't have camber plates. But if they have slotted holes, then I can see how you could get some camber that way, and as such you wouldn't need to do this method of getting camber adjustability in the rear.

[MyFreeCamry]

I know I am digging this up from the dead, but i have heard somewhere that if you want rear camber adjustment then you can install rear camber plate (top strut mounts) from a turbo mr2. Someone once said they fit great and you get adjustment. Correct me if I am wrong before I order them please.

[Venom_5]

idk what youre reading but full coilovers definitely have camber plates in the rear
i have some ... so do many members here ... we know what we own

as far as taking camber/caster plates from another vehicle ... anything with the same bolt pattern would fit, so just measure the bolt pattern to find out

[MyFreeCamry]

Originally Posted by Venom_5

idk what youre reading but full coilovers definitely have camber plates in the rear
i have some ... so do many members here ... we know what we own

as far as taking camber/caster plates from another vehicle ... anything with the same bolt pattern would fit, so just measure the bolt pattern to find out

I though ksports only had front upper camber plates? That is what is holding me back from ordering them.