ABS? n00b alert!

[CamBOT]

I have a 92 Camry LE V6 (japanese) I dont know if I have Abs or not.

I mean when i brake the wheels lock up and I know there is no ABS. But my car has all the indicators on the dash for ABS.

I'm not sure if Toyota used the same dash for all models or my car has ABS and is not working.

I only question the ABS thing because a while back i had the ABS light come on when i took off the steering wheel which i've reset using the jumper techique.

And for the life of me I dont remember if I used to lock up my wheels last winter or not. I must be getting old

Thank you.

[CamBOT]

^ Wow this guy is an Idiot. Shoulda used the search function.

Difference between DX, LE and XLE

[donbryce]

LOL I read your second post, but didn't notice you were replying to y'self, I thought geez, what a nasty forum.... Anyway, just look under the hood and follow the brake lines to and from the master cylinder. Mine has ABS, and the brakes always pulse, no matter what the speed or pressure, and I don't like this at all. Not sure if its normal or if the system is out of whack, which I assume not since the light has never come on.

[bcp477]

I can't say whether your car has ABS or not - but, if it does, you can find the accumulator/ solenoid valve body easily - it will be on the passenger side, toward the front of the engine bay. As Donbryce said, just trace the metal brake lines.

Donbryce:

I understand your lack of enthusiasm about the ABS in your car. The ABS in my '97 NEVER functioned correctly, which caused increased brake wear, longer stopping distances, etc. It also exacerbated the brake "rumble" or vibration which my car displayed (lots of the '97's and '98's have this issue). By "never functioned correctly" I do NOT mean that the system was damaged or broken. On the contrary, it checked out perfectly - in the end, the only solution anyone could offer was to simply replace all of the components - and HOPE that this would solve the issue. I elected NOT to waste my money in this fashion. As it happens, I found out that, at least on the '97's and '98's, the system was never properly calibrated for the car - and many of these have the same problem. ABS systems, as I have learned, are finicky and MUST be carefully calibrated for each model, with various aspects such as the weight of the car, the brake design and capacity, the type of pads used, etc. factored in - and this was NOT done properly on the '97's and '98's. I think that they finally got it right on the '99 models - at least, that is what I have read. However, I recently completed a removal of the ABS on my car, which was easier than expected. If you are good with a wrench and know brake systems reasonably well, you can do the same, if you wish. The only touchy technical matter is that you will need to replace some portions of the metal brake lines - and bend new ones. I found this relatively easy, in the end. I was able to use standard lengths of pre-flared tubing (with fittings already attached) by simply adding a couple of extra bends to take up the extra length. Anyway, it IS quite doable to dump the ABS system - and better overall brakes result - in my opinion. Mine are certainly world's better now.

As an interim (or simplified) solution, you can disconnect your ABS - and your brakes will still work just fine (better, I think). Simply unplug the large connector on the ABS assembly, under the hood. This will disable the entire ABS system. Since the Camry ABS is a NON-integral system, losing the ABS simply causes the braking system to revert to a normal one - it will cause NO other problems with braking. The "ABS" light will come on, on the dash, but you can remove the bulb from the back of the instrument cluster, if you wish (or just ignore it). Regardless, eliminating the ABS on my car has made a GREAT improvement in the brakes. I also have solved the brake vibration (or "rumble") problem - simply by switching to high-end ceramic pads (Akebono, to be exact). These have much more heat capacity than the original "semi-metallic" type (the original-type pads overheat on the front of the Camry, because they are the WRONG compound for the weight of the car....which leads to vibration and shorter brake life - another screw-up by the factory).

[dz63]

Originally Posted by bcp477

I also have solved the brake vibration (or "rumble") problem - simply by switching to high-end ceramic pads (Akebono, to be exact). These have much more heat capacity than the original "semi-metallic" type (the original-type pads overheat on the front of the Camry, because they are the WRONG compound for the weight of the car....which leads to vibration and shorter brake life - another screw-up by the factory).

bcp477 - I have always experienced brake rumbling on my 1996 Camry under heavy braking at high speed (ie. quickly slowing down from 65mph to 40mph for example). After replacing rotors and pads did not solve the problem, I figured that this is a systemic problem with the 1996 Camry. But, I have not been using high end ceramic pads. Based on your experience, would high end ceramic pads solve this problem? Can you please explain what is causing this and how the ceramic pads help?

[donbryce]

My Camry is a '96, so I assume that if they didn't get it right in '97 or '98, they sure as hell didn't design this one right either.
When the ABS (or equivalent proprietary system) started acting up on my 1985 Mercedes 380SE, I simply unplugged the relays to revert to standard brakes. This was mainly because of the parts costs, and because it only gets driven occasionally in the summer/fall, so no advantage on ice, and rarely in heavy rain either. The dash warning light is brightly shining somewhere inside the dash where I unplugged it from the cluster and stuffed a bit of black foam in the hole.
I'll put up with the Camry for the time being, but look into deactivating the ABS in the spring, which shouldn't be much more difficult than the Benz.

[bcp477]

As to whether the ceramic pads would fix this problem on YOUR car....I cannot guarantee it. However, my car had a severe problem with this, not just in hard braking from high speeds.....but from moderate speeds, as well. I now have a bit less than 4000 miles on the new pads - with absolutely NO vibration or "rumble" whatsoever.

I am in the process of refurbishing my car - a '97 LE 4-cyl. As a part of this, I have replaced many parts of the brake system, which I would have done anyway. I have also gotten rid of the ABS, which on my car, added to the brake rumble problem. As part of dealing with the brake rumble problem, I have tried several brands and grades of brake pads from several manufacturers, including Raybestos, the stock Toyota pads, etc. The ONLY ones to eliminate the brake rumble have been the Akebono ceramics. I did not try any other ceramic brand, as I found success with these.

As to WHY the brake rumble occurs....I've researched this extensively. The problem, put as simply as possible, is that the brakes on the Camry, especially the front disc/ rear drum arrangement on the 4-cyl. model, simply do NOT have enough excess heat capacity for the weight of the car - using the standard "semi-metallic" type pads, which are the type spec'd by Toyota. The standard pad compound does not have the capacity to absorb all of the heat generated by braking, so the pad surface actually deforms under braking.....melting and displacing somewhat to the edges....leading to an uneven surface. THIS, literally, is what causes the vibration. I confirmed this information using testing equipment, including a high-powered microscope and very precise surface- measuring equipment, in the materials labs at a local university. We compared a brand new set of pads (uninstalled) vs. a used set with about 2000 miles on them, which had begun to vibrate on my car. Same brand and model of pad in both cases. Fortunately, I have a good friend who is a Materials Scientist at the university. I am an engineer myself - a Civil Engineer - but I am familiar with structural forensics (which is the study of structural failure).....so none of this is really that new to me.

Anyway, the problem COULD be ultimately solved (or could have never appeared in the first place) - in several possible ways. Either Toyota COULD have specified LARGER front brakes for the car, including larger diameter rotors and correspondingly larger surface area pads. This would provide more heat capacity. If larger brakes had been fitted, then the standard pad compound might well have been fine, I don't know. However, the standard pad compound is NOT OK, given the circumstances as they are. Or, they could have specified a higher heat capacity COMPOUND for the pads themselves. Evidently they dropped the ball on this one. COST is usually the factor that prevents such measures, in a production environment. That and the fact that, I would wager, Toyota expected that the Camry, since it is a family car, would only be driven rather sedately. I do not drive my car hard as it is, so this was false logic, at best. The replacement of the standard compound brake pads with the high-end ceramic ones simply accomplishes the second of the two "solutions" described above - the pad material has a higher heat capacity.

I hope that this explanation helps you....and I hope that I haven't bored you to death with the details (you ASKED !). Anyway, as I said, I cannot guarantee that the ceramic pads will fix the problem on your car - but I BET they will. It would be a good idea, at the same time as the pads are replaced, to have the rotors turned or replaced (if need be), to give even and parallel surfaces for the new pads to rub against. As well, I would recommend being sure that the calipers are in good condition, including the mounting clips for the pads (these can be easily and cheaply replaced, if need be). The Akebono pads I chose CAME with shim kits - which I would recommend in order to be sure that the pads are positioned precisely. All of these factors can have an influence on brake vibrations - but the most important factor in this case is the pad compound itself.

[dz63]

bcp477 - Thanks for your comprensive response. It confirms what I suspected, namely that there is a design problem with the brakes on my '96 Camry. Don't worry about boring me with details - I am a mechanical engineer involved in equipment design. Love lots of details! Any idea what year Toyota solved this problem on the Camry?

[bcp477]

I have read that mostly the '97's and '98's, of the Gen. 4 cars, have the brake rumble problem. Apparently they got things sorted out on the '99 and later cars. As for the earlier cars (Gen, 1, 2, 3)....I can't say.....but it seems likely that the problem might be common on the earlier models, too. Your '96 certainly has the problem. One factor to be considered, which may figure into this, is that the Camry has steadily gotten HEAVIER over the years. The Gen. 2 are heavier than the Gen. 1 cars....3 still heavier.....4 about the same as the Gen. 3 cars. The Gen. 5 cars are around 250 - 300 lbs heavier than the Gen. 4 cars.....and the current model (Gen. 6 ?) tips the scales at (at least) 3500 lbs (4 cyl. models)....vs. about 3200 for my '97 (4 cyl.). So, the earlier cars, that is, before the Gen. 3 ones, perhaps did not have this brake issue, if the brake sizes and design were the same as the Gen. 3 and 4 cars....I don't know. All of that is, of course, speculation.