93 2.2 a/t idling rough in P/N, rougher in gear

[capedcadaver]

Hey guys. I'm a n00b on ToyotaNation, and pretty much a n00b with Toyotas, but not a n00b to car forums in general.

Anyhow, my brother has a 93 2.2 a/t with the better part of 160k miles on the clock. He was leaking a buttload of oil, so I told him to just bring the car to me and I'd take care of it. We removed the engine and trans from the car and separated them, then I replaced the rear main, crank seal, oil pump shaft seal, cam seal, timing belt/tensioner/idler, resealed the oil pan, and replaced his clicking RH axle. I had an FSM handy and used every torque spec i could find. After reinstalling the engine/trans and putting everything together, i unplugged the tach/CamPosSensor plug to prevent ignition, and spun the engine over for a few seconds to circulate the oil (the ECU's throwing a code 12 cuz i unplugged the disty for a few seconds) Then i reconnected it and fired her up. Timing light confirmed that the base timing when warm was spot-on at 10BTDC. I did NOT clear the code 12 yet.

Both before and after replacing the charcoal canister, which was murdered by the tranny on its way back into the engine bay, the car is idling rough and sounding a bit diesel-ish in neutral, and REALLY REALLY vibrating a lot when it's engaged in gear. The wishbone mount is 120% fubar'd, even tho he had it replaced at the dealer like 2 years ago.. the LH trans mount is still intact but a bit soft.. and the front/rear mounts are such a weird design compared to what i'm used to, i really can't tell if they are OK or not. The engine DOES shift quite significantly when engaging into gear.. the IM moves about 2 inches away from its previous location when engaging D/2/L.

But other than motor mounts is there anything you guys can think of that would cause a bit more ruckus out of the engine (mechanical noise, not an exhaust leak or anything) and a vibration like that. I didn't mess with the balance shafts at all, and the only thing i can conceive having messed up is MAYBE installing the 5-point rotor in the oilpump with 'tails side up'.. with the arrow side toward the fender rather than toward the block.

pics:
http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u...er/camry%2093/

[hill8570]

If the dogbone was trashed again after 2 years, it's a sure bet that the front motor mount is shot to hell (actually, that's what usually kills the dogbone -- the front mount goes, then the dogbone gets torn up). Since the dogbone needs replacing, I'd recommend getting a dogbone and dogbone engine mount for a Gen4 2.2L to replace your brother's Gen3 dogbone -- the Gen4 dogbone is quite a bit beefier. Rear mount may or may not be shot, although with that kind of mileage I'd be tempted just to change it out and be done with it.

With the engine at hot idle (roughly 750rpm) and all motor mounts in good shape, you shouldn't feel more than a slight bit of vibration in the steering wheel when stopped at a light.

[capedcadaver]

Originally Posted by hill8570

If the dogbone was trashed again after 2 years, it's a sure bet that the front motor mount is shot to hell (actually, that's what usually kills the dogbone -- the front mount goes, then the dogbone gets torn up). Since the dogbone needs replacing, I'd recommend getting a dogbone and dogbone engine mount for a Gen4 2.2L to replace your brother's Gen3 dogbone -- the Gen4 dogbone is quite a bit beefier. Rear mount may or may not be shot, although with that kind of mileage I'd be tempted just to change it out and be done with it.

With the engine at hot idle (roughly 750rpm) and all motor mounts in good shape, you shouldn't feel more than a slight bit of vibration in the steering wheel when stopped at a light.

Hmm.. he's not gonna like that. Matter of fact, the front mount was replaced at the same time as the dogbone, or so they say. When removing the drivetrain, I couldn't get the mount off the subframe, so i unbolted the top bolt from the arm that attaches to the block. The metal part moved up and down by like, 3/4" or so when i pulled it by hand... relatively no resistance either. So both mounts died in 2 years, or they were never replaced in the first place. Maybe I made the mounts worse while they were out of the car. I literally snapped my 15mm socket trying to remove the mount from the car... so it's gonna be fun getting that front mount off. I just hope he's not too pissed when i tell him he needs to dump ANOTHER load of money into the mounts, since a) he had 2 of them "replaced" recently and since we already just spent a few hunred $ doing the work that was already done... Oh well. I guess he'll just have to live with the vibration for a month or two until he recovers financially.

[hill8570]

Originally Posted by capedcadaver

Hmm.. he's not gonna like that. Matter of fact, the front mount was replaced at the same time as the dogbone, or so they say. When removing the drivetrain, I couldn't get the mount off the subframe, so i unbolted the top bolt from the arm that attaches to the block. The metal part moved up and down by like, 3/4" or so when i pulled it by hand... relatively no resistance either. So both mounts died in 2 years, or they were never replaced in the first place. Maybe I made the mounts worse while they were out of the car. I literally snapped my 15mm socket trying to remove the mount from the car... so it's gonna be fun getting that front mount off. I just hope he's not too pissed when i tell him he needs to dump ANOTHER load of money into the mounts, since a) he had 2 of them "replaced" recently and since we already just spent a few hunred $ doing the work that was already done... Oh well. I guess he'll just have to live with the vibration for a month or two until he recovers financially.

A new OEM mount can be moved a bit from side-to-side, but I personally can't move one up and down. If you can move it up and down by hand, there's basically no resistance in that mount...it's shot. Either that mount wasn't OEM (I've seen some pretty pathetic aftermarket motor mounts), or it was never replaced to begin with.

When you were trying to remove the mount from the frame, you didn't try to loosen the welded-on nut, right? It's not real obvious, but the top mount attaches to the frame via two bolts accessable from the top, and one bolt accessable from the bottom (which goes through a welded-on nut on the motor mount).

[capedcadaver]

Originally Posted by hill8570

A new OEM mount can be moved a bit from side-to-side, but I personally can't move one up and down. If you can move it up and down by hand, there's basically no resistance in that mount...it's shot. Either that mount wasn't OEM (I've seen some pretty pathetic aftermarket motor mounts), or it was never replaced to begin with.

When you were trying to remove the mount from the frame, you didn't try to loosen the welded-on nut, right? It's not real obvious, but the top mount attaches to the from via two bolts accessable from the top, and one bolt accessable from the bottom (which goes through a welded-on nut on the motor mount).

lmao i think i did try and loosen the welded one. but yea i could move it up and down by hand... no resistance. And the dogbone and front mount were replaced by the local Toyota dealership. If they were replaced at all, then they were definitely OEM replacements. I'll have him bring over the paperwork from that job to see exactly when it was done.... maybe he can get it re-done for free. Fat chance, i know, but there's no way they should have failed so fast if they were replaced.

edit: ok.. apparently he got a quote from the dealer but the work wasn't actually done there... and apparently he didn't change the front one after all.. just the dogbone. which explains how come it died so quickly.

[capedcadaver]

ok there's a video of the car (there's 2 more in that folder) in drive, with me pulsing the throttle by hand.. and then i tell him to shift it into R. notice how it gets REALLY alot noisier in reverse. That's sort of what baffled me about it, how come it's worse in Reverse than in Drive. But yea, turns out he did only ever replace the dogbone (i saw the invoice) so.. i guess i'm gonna have to just do all 4 mounts and hope for the best. I'm going to the JY tomorrow so hopefully i can find a 4gen bracket so he can use a 4gen dogbone.

[hill8570]

Originally Posted by capedcadaver

ok there's a video of the car (there's 2 more in that folder) in drive, with me pulsing the throttle by hand.. and then i tell him to shift it into R. notice how it gets REALLY alot noisier in reverse. That's sort of what baffled me about it, how come it's worse in Reverse than in Drive. But yea, turns out he did only ever replace the dogbone (i saw the invoice) so.. i guess i'm gonna have to just do all 4 mounts and hope for the best. I'm going to the JY tomorrow so hopefully i can find a 4gen bracket so he can use a 4gen dogbone.

Wow -- that's one jumpy motor. Given the way it jumps in reverse, I'd say the rear motor mount is completely shot, also. Probably not surprising -- with the front mount and dogbone gone, it's probably been taking a beating. And, while it's your money (actually, your brother's money ), it's unlikely that the tranny mount needs replacing.

[capedcadaver]

Originally Posted by hill8570

Wow -- that's one jumpy motor. Given the way it jumps in reverse, I'd say the rear motor mount is completely shot, also. Probably not surprising -- with the front mount and dogbone gone, it's probably been taking a beating. And, while it's your money (actually, your brother's money ), it's unlikely that the tranny mount needs replacing.

well in reverse it doesn't move that much, it's just ungodly noisy and gives the driver a crude massage. but in D, it jumps and rocks and tries to leave the engine bay haha. I guess i'll just do those 3, using a 4gen dogbone. Is there any improvement in design (or cross-compatibility) of the 4th gen front/rear mounts in a 3 gen? I'm trying to make sure his car doesn't give him problems for a good long while.. he's about to lose his roommate so he won't have that extra money to put into his car anymore. Mainly cuz he doesn't have the luxury of letting his car sit for a while awaiting repairs once I get a job again.. this time i could take him to work cuz i'm unemployed.

[94CAM]

I ordered the gen4 dogbone & bracket; should be in tomorrow. Gonna try to replace the other 3 mounts today. Sick of the stop sign shakes.

capedcadaver, how did yours work out after replacing the mounts?

[capedcadaver]

Originally Posted by 94CAM

I ordered the gen4 dogbone & bracket; should be in tomorrow. Gonna try to replace the other 3 mounts today. Sick of the stop sign shakes.

capedcadaver, how did yours work out after replacing the mounts?

haven't done them yet. my brother doesn't have the money for them right now, but i'll definitely post back as soon as i put the new ones on. i think we'll just do the 3 engine mounts, and leave the trans mount be for now.

[94CAM]

Well, I changed out the front & transmission mount yesterday; just as bad if not worse vibration as before. The front one (with no weight on it) had become 3/4" shorter than the new one. Didn't have time to do the back one yet.

The larger dogbone & bracket set hopefully will be delivered today. Hope this helps; running out of ideas (both my own & forum)!

[94CAM]

Finally got around to replacing the dogbone & bracket with the set Bear95 used. It did help. Still some vibration (as with his afterwards) but WAY better. The only motor mount that needs to be replaced now is the rear one but the new dogbone change helped so much that I don't have to rush to replace this one; I'll get to it eventually. Thanks to all especially Bear95!!

[project92camry]

i would recheck the timing belt

[94CAM]

Originally Posted by project92camry

i would recheck the timing belt

Done with water pump