Toyota/Camry problems and WHY!?

[haux]

I've gotta admit, I'm drunk right now.

Nevertheless, I wonder, why do some have so many/odd problems with their Camry's or Toyotas in general and others don't?

Does it really have to do with how the user drives his/her car and how well he/she maintains it?

If, in a factory manufactured situation, a component gets produced the same exact way every single time, how does it go wrong for some and not for others?

I have a 2000 Toyota Camry LE 2.2 with over 334,601 miles (checked tonight). I've read loads of threads here about people having issues with Camry's with less than 200,000 miles. Some ~120k, others even less than 100k. Most of these problems I have never experienced. Although lots of these Camry's are ~5 years older. How does age affect these cars as much (or more than) as mileage?

Am I just lucky? Does this happen a lot?

Comments/thoughts appreciated.

[CJCride]

Assume you're sobering up now. Hope it's not with a hangover.

Maybe the assembly of the parts vary, tolerances, materials etc.
Maybe the assembly of the car varies, Early Monday, etc.

One Shuttle keeps flying, one doesn't.
You're OK, yet your sibling is not.

[bigbird]

man you were drunk. asking philosophical camry questions, thats taking it to a whole new level.

[abew330]

^^^ thats what i was gonna say

i have some small issue with my car at times. not every day
it feels like if i dont clean/check up on the car it runs like crap.

[White95Cam]

Originally Posted by haux

I've gotta admit, I'm drunk right now.

Nevertheless, I wonder, why do some have so many/odd problems with their Camry's or Toyotas in general and others don't?

Does it really have to do with how the user drives his/her car and how well he/she maintains it?

If, in a factory manufactured situation, a component gets produced the same exact way every single time, how does it go wrong for some and not for others?

I have a 2000 Toyota Camry LE 2.2 with over 334,601 miles (checked tonight). I've read loads of threads here about people having issues with Camry's with less than 200,000 miles. Some ~120k, others even less than 100k. Most of these problems I have never experienced. Although lots of these Camry's are ~5 years older. How does age affect these cars as much (or more than) as mileage?

Am I just lucky? Does this happen a lot?

Comments/thoughts appreciated.

Following the maintenance guide is the biggest indicator of longevity. How's the head this afternoon?
W95c

[bcp477]

Manufacturing tolerances...... quality of assembly.....and maintenence - it's as simple as that. NOTHING manufactured is perfect and it costs too much to spend the time and effort to ensure that every part is as perfect as it can be. There is a wide variance in assembly quality...that is, how much care is taken by the person installing a crankshaft seal, for example....to be sure not to damage the lip and cause premature failure. MAINTENANCE is probably as important as the other two. As everyone knows, there is a VERY WIDE variance in the quality and frequency of maintenance....as well as the quality of the efforts of those doing the work.

A valid comparison can be, on this subject, between CARS and AIRCRAFT. Aircraft, though containing thousands of manufactured parts.....and assembled largely by hand (even more so than cars, at this point)....and maintained by fallible humans, etc. - have a breakdown rate FAR, FAR lower than cars. Why ? Because, at every stage, from manufacturing to maintenance, more care is taken with aircraft.....for obvious reasons. As well, maintenance on most aircraft is not performed by some backyard yaahoo, or poorly trained mechanic, who really doesn't know what he is doing....as is the case with many cars (though cetainly, by no means, all cars). The result is the wide difference in breakdown rates and the incidence of "odd" problems.

I would also add that, in the case of manufacturers suggested maintenance intervals on cars, a BIG "grain of salt" must be taken. Such things as 7500 mile oil change intervals (with any but full synthetic oils)....are simply nonsense. Most of the general public don't like to work on, or spend money on their cars - and maintenace schedules are written with this in mind. Not so with aircraft - maintanace, if done correctly (and within regulations) is nothing short of stringent. If the same were true of cars, in general, then the breakdown rates would be correspondingly lower.

[haux]

I get it now.

Johnny's Camry broke down because assembly line worker Tom is having marital problems, and thinks his wife Jessica is cheating on him with his boss, Dave.

The human factor, gotta love it!

The hangover wasn't too bad. I've had worse mornings.

Thank you all for your input!

[bcp477]

It is more likely that Johnny's Camry broke down because he didn't bother to change the oil any more often that the recommended interval in the owner's manual...... and was so busy with his marital problems, that he let it go well past 10,000 miles, repeatedly. It can happen to any of us, but almost all of these kind of problems are preventable, folks..... that's the point.

[Frodo65]

Originally Posted by haux

I've gotta admit, I'm drunk right now.

Nevertheless, I wonder, why do some have so many/odd problems with their Camry's or Toyotas in general and others don't?

Does it really have to do with how the user drives his/her car and how well he/she maintains it?

If, in a factory manufactured situation, a component gets produced the same exact way every single time, how does it go wrong for some and not for others?

I have a 2000 Toyota Camry LE 2.2 with over 334,601 miles (checked tonight). I've read loads of threads here about people having issues with Camry's with less than 200,000 miles. Some ~120k, others even less than 100k. Most of these problems I have never experienced. Although lots of these Camry's are ~5 years older. How does age affect these cars as much (or more than) as mileage?

Am I just lucky? Does this happen a lot?

Comments/thoughts appreciated.

There are also other dimensions:

• Service life also depends on usage. Your usage is very high (30K+ miles/year. This indicates relatively few cold starts and lots of running at 'normal' operating temp. Thermal cycling does create a number of 'failure enablers' like oil dilution from excess fuel, oil contamination from condensation, etc.
• Maintenance plays a part, but it's maintenance for the operating conditions, not necessarily absolute. In high-mileage driving, 7500 mile oil change is likely adequate - in cold-climate 15 minute drive commuting, it'll kill a motor. Other killers include excessive idling, mainly because it understates operating time (see maintenance for conditions)
• Driving style plays a big part. Drive it like you stole it will cause early trans death - and early engine death too. Brake wear-out, bearing and suspension wear all are related to how you drive. One driver could easily get 3x the life of brake life as another, even operating in virtually same traffic conditions.
• There is an element of luck in that some cars are on the 'good' side of tolerances, and some on the 'bad'. Most have both.
• There is also the issue of time. A car will more easily reach 400K miles in 10 years than 400K miles in 20. This is due to some parts' deterioration due to time. Rubber and plastic part deterioration, as well as rust are more related to time than use.
• Manufactured parts are really not identical, they're within tolerance. There are innate differences and variations between individual units - see "luck" above.
• There is also accident damage - some 'hits' light long-burning fuses that don't go off for a long time.

[bcp477]

Good post, Frodo. Precise and to the point. Very well written.

I will take issue with one thing, though. Sorry, but 7500 mile oil change intervals, with anything but full synthetic oil....for the vast majority of drivers.....is idiotic. (I am NOT calling you idiotic....NO NO, not at all - just that practice). It is ASKING for trouble....NO matter WHAT the conditions of use. The "standard" with conventional motor oils has always been about 50 operating hours....and yes, with high mileage driving (long trips), one can rack up 7500 miles in 50 operating hours....of course. However, the VAST majority of drivers never do this. So, in my opinion, it is irresponsible to suggest that 7500 mile intervals are OK..... though, technically, you are correct on that point. Unfortunately though, through NO fault and NO responsibility of yours, people read something like that.....and they just assume that it's OK to go 7500, no matter what. Then, "well, if it's OK to go 7500......gee, I'm really busy right now.....so, if 7500 is OK, then 10,000 is probably OK.......just this once" .....etc. etc. etc. We both know the results of that.

So, with REAL world experience in mind, I NEVER suggest that 7500 mile intervals are OK.....NEVER. I really don't mean to take you to task on this - because, as I said, you are technically correct. I just felt it necessary to offer this clarification.

[flyeri]

Frodo and BCP make excellent points. Just as a matter of interest I have not reset the trip computer on my Chevy for maybe 15-20,000 miles. it says my average speed is in the 37mph range. I drive most days 10-15 miles at speeds of 45-60mph with only several stoplights and much around town at 20-35mph. I do drive some longer distances on a somewhat regular basis but only 200-400 miles round trip. My last 1500 mile trip to Florida only changed the averabe by .2mph. The point of all this is that at that speed it takes me about 81 hours of engine running time to travel 3000 miles. My lawn mower with pressure oil system and the sames size oil filter calls for a change at 50 hours. The manufactures are very liberal when they say 7500 miles but that does not fit for most of us on the road. A better indicator would be an hour meter rather than an odometer.

As far as engine breaksowns on aircraft BCP is correct. We seldom have a failure or major issue. However with the electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic, pressurization, etc systems we still breakdown plenty. And trust me most of the problems are odd.

[Frodo65]

Originally Posted by bcp477

Good post, Frodo. Precise and to the point. Very well written.

I will take issue with one thing, though. Sorry, but 7500 mile oil change intervals, with anything but full synthetic oil....for the vast majority of drivers.....is idiotic. (I am NOT calling you idiotic....NO NO, not at all - just that practice). It is ASKING for trouble....NO matter WHAT the conditions of use. The "standard" with conventional motor oils has always been about 50 operating hours....and yes, with high mileage driving (long trips), one can rack up 7500 miles in 50 operating hours....of course. However, the VAST majority of drivers never do this. So, in my opinion, it is irresponsible to suggest that 7500 mile intervals are OK..... though, technically, you are correct on that point. Unfortunately though, through NO fault and NO responsibility of yours, people read something like that.....and they just assume that it's OK to go 7500, no matter what. Then, "well, if it's OK to go 7500......gee, I'm really busy right now.....so, if 7500 is OK, then 10,000 is probably OK.......just this once" .....etc. etc. etc. We both know the results of that.

So, with REAL world experience in mind, I NEVER suggest that 7500 mile intervals are OK.....NEVER. I really don't mean to take you to task on this - because, as I said, you are technically correct. I just felt it necessary to offer this clarification.

50 hours at even 70 MPH is 3500 miles - that's being way conservative unless running at near full load - again, no harm, other than to you wallet. 100 hour interval is well within safety margin for most uses, and more wallet-friendly. If you're truly paranoid, oil analysis will give the definitive answer as to how much of a margin you have, with less waste of natural resources.

An hour meter to accurately reflect hours of operation is a simple way of determining this - and many newer cars have them built in to the ECU. They also factor in load, peak temps, start cycles, etc. Modern engines that run well don't put that much crap in the engine oil. Sludge usually happens when temps get out of control or PCV system becomes ineffective. Toyota's issue was due to a combo of PCV with low flow, and high head temps. The combo turned oil into sludge, and even relatively frequent changes didn't eliminate the problem.

[haux]

Originally Posted by Frodo65

There are also other dimensions:

• Service life also depends on usage. Your usage is very high (30K+ miles/year. This indicates relatively few cold starts and lots of running at 'normal' operating temp. Thermal cycling does create a number of 'failure enablers' like oil dilution from excess fuel, oil contamination from condensation, etc.
• There is also the issue of time. A car will more easily reach 400K miles in 10 years than 400K miles in 20. This is due to some parts' deterioration due to time. Rubber and plastic part deterioration, as well as rust are more related to time than use.
• Manufactured parts are really not identical, they're within tolerance. There are innate differences and variations between individual units - see "luck" above.

The first two of those three most relate to me. Although, many plastic/rubber parts under my hood are already dried to the point of breakage or cracking (if trying to remove them). This year I will be replacing a bunch of hoses as part of an attempt to clear up CEL emission codes.

I suppose stuff will rust over the years as well. I'm not seeing nearly as much rust on my car as I see in pictures of 95's and such.

[Dick Tuck]

If you have some understanding of how a car works (and why full throttle upshifts all the time don't do much for auto tranny clutch packs, for example) and if you WANT the car to last, drive it in a sane way
and care for it you can get the 250K that a Gen 4, for example can deliver. What is annoying is the sensors we have to put up with now which only last 100k no matter HOW you drive.

[haux]

Originally Posted by Dick Tuck

If you have some understanding of how a car works (and why full throttle upshifts all the time don't do much for auto tranny clutch packs, for example) and if you WANT the car to last, drive it in a sane way
and care for it you can get the 250K that a Gen 4, for example can deliver. What is annoying is the sensors we have to put up with now which only last 100k no matter HOW you drive.

Except I've got over 335k now, and I haven't replaced a single sensor until this month. Which was sort of the whole thing that lead to me posting this thread. :] ...wondering why some people with 120k have all these problems and here I am driving on 335,000-mile old suspension. And JUST NOW my oxygen sensors popped up a P0420. Nevertheless, I get the gist of the reasons now.