Help! Creaking Front passenger side,bad tie rod/ball join?

[peshwa]

I am new to TN but enjoy all the high quality posts here. Since early last week my 95 Camry DX I4 is acting up with below problem:

• Issue:Front Passenger side is creaking (The creaking noise is like a metal piece rubbing violently against another) whenever
  1. Going over bumps at 10 mph or less.
  2. If I drive over a bump with my right wheel followed by my left wheel.
  3. If I go over the same bump at > 25 mph there is NO creaking whatsoever.

• Car Details:
  1. Mileage as of now:164XXX miles.
  2. Bought a 1995 Camry DX I4 (5SFE?) from private party in May 2007 at mileage 139K.
  3. Apparently it was not all that well maintained but I went with Toyota reliability. I was into my first job and a complete noob when I bought this car.
  4. It has recently gone through a major tune up (timing belts replacement,transmission oil change,brake inspection,cleaning etc)
  5. 4 months ago I drove the left wheel over a curb at ~25 mph and back onto the road. Not a major impact but got wheels aligned anyway. Drives ok now.
• Diagnostic Information for bad tie rod end/ball joint
  • Test 1
    1. Put the car in Parking gear,Emergency brake on.
    2. I jacked up the car on the car jack and tried to move the wheel in,out and 3-9 and 12-6 clock positions.
    3. No vertical or horizontal play determined whatsoever.
    4. However I found the wheel could be moved slightly in circles.
  • Test 2
    1. Put car in P gear. E brake ON.
    2. Press on the front passenger side continuously.
    3. I was NOT able to hear the creaks I misunderstood a noise as the creak initially.
• Temporary troubleshooting:
  • I sprayed a PB Blaster (bought from Kragen) to see if that helps.
  • It did reduce the creaking but not much. Maybe I didnt spray all over the right hand side suspension. Will do so tomorrow.
• Images/Video of diagnostic test
  • You Tube

    You Tube

  • Image 1: http://picasaweb.google.com/janorkar...54402973770898
  • Image 2:http://picasaweb.google.com/janorkar...54401683360098
• Questions:
  • What could be going on with my suspension? Bad tie rod? Bad ball joint? Unlubricated suspension part?
  • Does the ball joint in the photo looks like it will come out soon?
  • What should be my future course of action?
  • Is the car dangerous to drive?

[96paseo]

Your FSB bushings may need to be replaced. The rubber tends to dry out and start creaking over time. You can spray them with some silicone but thats usually a temporary fix. Check your rotor guards and wheel well liners. I've seen the well liner come out just enough to make contact with the tire when hitting bumps or cornering. You can use a pry bar to move the ball joint as well. Sometimes a bad ball joint won't display any play until you force it out of the position you have in the pictures.

The wheel rotation dispalyed in the video is normal. Your just rotating the driveshaft back and forth against the differential. Even with the trans in "P", you will still have that little bit of play. Its hard to say whether or not the car is dangerous to drive. If creaking is your only major problem and your car isn't "wandering" on the road, your tie rod and ball joint should be ok. If you have any alignment issues or improper tire wear, remove the wheel and check for play or damage. Did the shop that did the alignment tell you there was any major damage or parts that should be replaced?

[peshwa]

Originally Posted by 96paseo

Your FSB bushings may need to be replaced. The rubber tends to dry out and start creaking over time. You can spray them with some silicone but thats usually a temporary fix. Check your rotor guards and wheel well liners. I've seen the well liner come out just enough to make contact with the tire when hitting bumps or cornering. You can use a pry bar to move the ball joint as well. Sometimes a bad ball joint won't display any play until you force it out of the position you have in the pictures.

The wheel rotation dispalyed in the video is normal. Your just rotating the driveshaft back and forth against the differential. Even with the trans in "P", you will still have that little bit of play. Its hard to say whether or not the car is dangerous to drive. If creaking is your only major problem and your car isn't "wandering" on the road, your tie rod and ball joint should be ok. If you have any alignment issues or improper tire wear, remove the wheel and check for play or damage. Did the shop that did the alignment tell you there was any major damage or parts that should be replaced?

Thanks for the response 96paseo!

• Regarding "wandering":
  • The car goes to the right if I accelerate on the freeway at speeds > 50 mph. In fact I have to firmly grip the steering wheel to keep the car going straight.
  • While coasting the car can go in any direction. Either right or left.
• The mechanic who did the tune up (Nov 5 2009) mentioned my front passenger side suspension may need attention. I can not recall what exactly he said.I will confirm once the shop opens after the long weekend. I observed yesterday that my left CV rubber boot torn in the middle and smeared in grease. Need to replace that one asap too.
• BTW do you have any links pointing to a DIY on FSB troubleshooting? Thanks again for your help.

[96paseo]

Regarding "wandering":

• The car goes to the right if I accelerate on the freeway at speeds > 50 mph. In fact I have to firmly grip the steering wheel to keep the car going straight.
• While coasting the car can go in any direction. Either right or left.

• Sounds like a tie rod may be bad according to your description. Try performing the same test you did in the video on the RF wheel. If there is no play, your aligment is off or there is a bent/broken part. If you find any play, remove the wheel and check your tie rod and ball joint. I haven't seen any DIY on the FSB.

• AE92 Lower Suspension Pics

• Check out the above link. It has a couple pics of an FSB from a Corolla. This will give you an idea of how an FSB mounts up.

[peshwa]

Update on my front passenger side creak
I took the car to the shop and rode one of the mechanics next to me over all the bumps in the parking lot and showed him the noise. He quickly got down checking the ball joints and tie rod of the front passenger side.He came to the same conclusion as mine: There is no play either with tie rod or ball joints. Seem pretty tight.
Then he bounced the front passenger side and opined there could be a problem with the strut mount and shock absorber. He reasoned that if shock absorber is bad it will not dampen the coil spring vibrations effectively thus leading to a squeak/creak coming from that side.
Does that sound logical? Or is he BSing me?
I must admit that the front passenger side shock does seem floaty. But its been that way ever since I bought this car 2 and half years ago.
One notable point is when I turn my steering wheel to left and accelerate the wheel returns to center and feels tight. However when I turn my steering wheel to right and accelerate the wheel doesnt return to center. Instead I have to turn it to come back to center.
What does this indicate? Bad strut mount?
Anyway I found this video on youtube while searching frantically for strut mount/bad shock absorber problem and the sound in the video is very similar to mine (except mine is more violent) when I go over bumps at 10 mph or when car nosedives. When I go over same bumps at > 25 mph no noise whatsoever!
Assuming my mechanic's diagnosis is correct Is the car safe to drive?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRDnGJZmYzk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRDnGJZmYzk

[davemac2]

if the mechanic could not find anything obvious, it's unlikely the car is unsafe to drive. From your description of the stiff steering, it sounds like maybe the right strut assembly got damaged in that initial 25mph bump. It may have already been marginal. It's probably the strut mount itself or the coil isolator that has failed. A failed strut bearing could cause the steering stiffness, but then you would also think it would be noisy when your wheels are turned. Make sure the strut mount on that right fender side under the hood is tight. You could have also broken the spring on that side.

dave mc

[abew330]

was there any noise when you bounced the front passenger? you try the front driver side?

inspect the strut, strut mount, and spring coil rubber seat (rubber sits between strut and spring)

check front sway bar bushings

[peshwa]

Originally Posted by abew330

was there any noise when you bounced the front passenger? you try the front driver side?

inspect the strut, strut mount, and spring coil rubber seat (rubber sits between strut and spring)

check front sway bar bushings

Hi abew330
I didnt observe any noise when I tried to bump the front passenger side even multiple times. I am certainly going to look at the sway bar/bushings. I am not completely convinced that shocks/strut mounts have gone bad. I had a floaty ride ever since I bought this car at 139K miles.
Moreover if I go over the same speed bumps in my parking lot at 25 mph I dont hear any creaking from my front passenger side.
Its only when I drive at 5-10 mph over the same bumps that I hear a very unmistakable creak. Something like one metal loudly rubbing against another.
It seems to get more pronounced when the road slopes steeply and meets a "normal" surface road. If the car touches such a road coming down a slope making a left turn there is this creak heard from somewhere near the right wheel. I am pretty sure about it.
I dont have a set of jack stands but I plan to buy one and jack it up to see whats wrong.
The damn weather is not helping me either. I live in an apartment complex thats quite windy and cold these days.
How I wish I could afford a house thereby giving me a garage to fix my baby camry!!

[peshwa]

Originally Posted by peshwa

Hi abew330
I didnt observe any noise when I tried to bump the front passenger side even multiple times. I am certainly going to look at the sway bar/bushings. I am not completely convinced that shocks/strut mounts have gone bad. I had a floaty ride ever since I bought this car at 139K miles.
Moreover if I go over the same speed bumps in my parking lot at 25 mph I dont hear any creaking from my front passenger side.
Its only when I drive at 5-10 mph over the same bumps that I hear a very unmistakable creak. Something like one metal loudly rubbing against another.
It seems to get more pronounced when the road slopes steeply and meets a "normal" surface road. If the car touches such a road coming down a slope making a left turn there is this creak heard from somewhere near the right wheel. I am pretty sure about it.
I dont have a set of jack stands but I plan to buy one and jack it up to see whats wrong.
The damn weather is not helping me either. I live in an apartment complex thats quite windy and cold these days.
How I wish I could afford a house thereby giving me a garage to fix my baby camry!!

So over the weekend I finally bought jack stands/trolley jack to perform various diagnostics on the front passenger side wheel.

1. The creak is recorded in this youtube video.Please increase the volume.The thumping in video is coz car is going over a bump.
2. You Tube

   You Tube

3. The sway bar end link is pictured here. (BTW The oil in the picture is PB Blaster. )
4. 
5. I have created a small youtube clip of my investigation.
6. You Tube

   You Tube

7. Is wiggling of end links as shown in video normal?
8. Next plan of action
   • Starting tomorrow I will spray each of the 3 suspects (End links,lower ball joint and tie rod) with PB Blaster,let it dry for some time and then drive the car.

An observation from today

• The creak is clearly heard from inside the car and not so much from outside. You gotta be very near the right wheel if its going over bumps at 5 mph to hear the creak.

Your feedback is very very much appreciated (and needed here) as I try to diagnose this issue!

[peshwa]

Quick Update folks
Thanks to all your help and input I have found play with the front passenger side control arm rear bushings when gently moved with a big pry bar . This confirmed my observation that 12-6 O Clock test on this wheel didnt uncover anything. The ball joint was dried but didnt have any play. I suppose this is where its creaking for me! (Until I find out something else thats creaking....he he..)
Anyway I changed out both front lower ball joints and tie rod ends. The steering doesnt dance like crazy while going over bumps now...
I plan to replace the front passenger side control arm bushings this week. Will I need an alignment after I replace my bushings?I changed my tie rods and ball joints yesterday and havent been to the alignment shop till now.
Should I do an alignment before replacing control arms? What do you guys suggest?

[96paseo]

Replace the control arm bushings before getting an alignment. There's no point getting the alignment done beforehand unless you were really far off with the new tie rods. That doesn't seem to be the case though. You may need to put the control arms on a press to get the old bushings out.

[RU2CHKN]

did u replace your sway bar link?

[peshwa]

Thanks RU2CHKN 96paseo for your replies

Originally Posted by RU2CHKN

did u replace your sway bar link?

No. The Front Passenger side looks good but the Front Driver sway bar end link has play in it. Will replace that while replacing the bushings.

Originally Posted by 96paseo

Replace the control arm bushings before getting an alignment. There's no point getting the alignment done beforehand unless you were really far off with the new tie rods. That doesn't seem to be the case though. You may need to put the control arms on a press to get the old bushings out.

Thanks 96paseo for pointing out the "press out". A tire shop would do that?Firestone?
Is it always necessary to do an alignment after taking out the control arms? Do the worn out bushings in control arms cause alignment to be off?

[96paseo]

Thanks 96paseo for pointing out the "press out". A tire shop would do that?Firestone?
Is it always necessary to do an alignment after taking out the control arms? Do the worn out bushings in control arms cause alignment to be off?

Its important to get an alignment after replacing tie rods, ball joints, struts or any combination of the three. Replacing bad control arm bushings shouldn't throw off the alignment. Most shops have a press. I'd recommend that you call ahead before bringing in your arms and bushings. Just in case the shop refuses to help you so you don't waste your time.

[peshwa]

Thanks 96paseo for your prompt response and followup.Appreciate it very much

Originally Posted by 96paseo

Replacing bad control arm bushings shouldn't throw off the alignment.

I assume a worn control arm bushing only "creaks" and doesnt wear the tire

I'd recommend that you call ahead before bringing in your arms and bushings. Just in case the shop refuses to help you so you don't waste your time

I called couple of shops in Fremont CA today and not many knew what I was talking about . One Big O tires guy agreed to press out-in the control arm bushing for $35 one side. He said something like "we charge $35/hour for machining" With the correct press tool this CA bushing shouldn't take more than 10 mins...This camry is my daily driver and I am hitching a ride to work with a co-worker. With new tie rods ends/ball joints I am afraid of wearing out the other tire if I dont get alignment asap.
Will go for an alignment tomorrow and update you later on the results. I basically will request the alignment shop to first check whether the wheels can be aligned. I hope they are honest with me! That way I can change some more parts (and burn a bigger hole in my empty pockets )
BTW I just placed an order with RockAuto for CA bushings and bendix brake pads. What a nice christmas gift to myself