3rd & 4th Generation (1992–1996 & 1997–2001)Toyota Camry Discussion for years: 1992-1996 & 1997-2001
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1999 Camry, 4cyl, 52K miles...new rotors and pads(Original Toyota Parts) plus
new Goodyear ComfortTrack tires. Issue is when braking hard, typically on
highway, theres a noticeable rumble from front, seems more so from drivers
side front wheel. Problem was noticed before tires were changes, partly why I
replaced the tires(were Michelin MXV4) due to noisiness. Car is pristine condition
and meticulously maintained.
New pads and rotors shouldn't be the causing noises. But I don't use Toyota pads and rotors either. Brembo/Hawk HPS or Brembo/Akebono ProAct would be better combinations.
Check your caliper and anchor pins. They may be sticking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytoy
1999 Camry, 4cyl, 52K miles...new rotors and pads(Original Toyota Parts) plus
new Goodyear ComfortTrack tires. Issue is when braking hard, typically on
highway, theres a noticeable rumble from front, seems more so from drivers
side front wheel. Problem was noticed before tires were changes, partly why I
replaced the tires(were Michelin MXV4) due to noisiness. Car is pristine condition
and meticulously maintained.
New pads and rotors shouldn't be the causing noises. But I don't use Toyota pads and rotors either. Brembo/Hawk HPS or Brembo/Akebono ProAct would be better combinations.
Check your caliper and anchor pins. They may be sticking.
Thanks for the comments. Just some further clarification, the braking
rumble was present before I had the Rotors and Pads replaced. Was
primary reason I had them replaced. Work was done by local Toyota
dealer. When still experiencing the rumble, replaced the noisy Michelins
with the new Goodyears.
Question...wouldn't the anchor pins have been dealt with during the
brake work the Toyota dealer performed?
Sure, we can only assume for now tires, rotors, and pads are not the problem.
Anchor pins can be a problem area for Toyotas. Pads should not stick in the glide rails. Caliper piston may stick, but not as likely as the anchor pins. If these are fine then you are looking upstream in the hydraulics.
Have you ever flushed the brake fluid? If you have ABS make sure the dealer exercises the solenoids to purge any air out of the secondary pressure relieving circuit.
You need a comprehensive brake system diagnosis, and since you're still having problems, I don't think your dealer is up to it. I know, costs can add up fast if you don't do your own work.
PS, I wouldn't count on their doing anything with the anchor pins. Did you ask? Probably just slapped on the rotors and pads and bolted everything back. Dealer mechanics are essentially independent contractors. They get paid by the number of cars going through their service bays. I wouldn't count too much on details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytoy
Question...wouldn't the anchor pins have been dealt with during the
brake work the Toyota dealer performed?
Sure, we can only assume for now tires, rotors, and pads are not the problem.
Anchor pins can be a problem area for Toyotas. Pads should not stick in the glide rails. Caliper piston may stick, but not as likely as the anchor pins. If these are fine then you are looking upstream in the hydraulics.
Have you ever flushed the brake fluid? If you have ABS make sure the dealer exercises the solenoids to purge any air out of the secondary pressure relieving circuit.
You need a comprehensive brake system diagnosis, and since you're still having problems, I don't think your dealer is up to it. I know, costs can add up fast if you don't do your own work.
PS, I wouldn't count on their doing anything with the anchor pins. Did you ask? Probably just slapped on the rotors and pads and bolted everything back. Dealer mechanics are essentially independent contractors. They get paid by the number of cars going through their service bays. I wouldn't count too much on details.
Truthfully no, I didn't ask about anchor pins. I just assumed they knew what they were doing. Something came up today while talking with a friend. He said something about
it possibly being the start of a bad front wheel bearing. Noisy when under load...which is
exactly when this rumble occurs. Sound plausible?
It sounds as if you are having the same problem as I had, with my '97. The problem has nothing to do with your tyres. It also obviously has nothing to do with your rotors.....the problem occurred both before AND after the rotors were replaced. After extensive testing of different brake pads..... rotors..... entirely replacing the brake fluid, replacing ABS wheel sensors, etc......I found two things with my car. One, the factory brake pads were NOT up to the task - they simply don't have enough heat capacity - and tend to overheat with only normal braking, especially from highway speeds. Two, the most important part of the puzzle was the ABS system. I found out, after extensive research on this, that the Bosch 5.3 system in the Camrys was not calibrated correctly in many of the cars - that is, a high percentage of the production run exhibited this problem. The ABS system, if not working exactly right, tends to cycle on and off during times that it should NOT even be in play.....such as normal braking on dry pavement. This will cause the brake rumble problem - regardless of the pads used. I switched (and use now) high-end Akebono ceramic pads......but, by itself, this did NOT fix the problem. The only way that I finally got the problem to disappear was to disable the ABS system.....AND use the Akebono pads. I suspect that any high-quality ceramic pads would be OK....not just the Akebonos. But, the KEY to the whole thing was shutting down the ABS. I've since removed my ABS system altogether and re-run my brake lines, etc. However, this is not necessary - the ABS can be simply disconnected.
The problem with the ABS is kind of hard to grasp. It is NOT a simple issue - and NOT anything like a bad wheel sensor (I tried that). It is some sort of intermittent fault in the ABS system itself, in combination with the poor quality pads. I found, on the web, a document (a Toyota service bulletin), which points to the fact that they were aware the the Bosch 5.3 ABS was not completely sorted out for the Camry....and did not always work as intended. It also suggested that Toyota engineers had not managed to figure out WHY this was happening, especially on some cars, but not others.
Also, this problem, as I understand it, occurs almost all of the time in the BOSCH 5.3 ABS- equipped cars. Some Camrys from the same model years have a Nippondenso system. Apparently the Nippondenso system doesn't suffer from the same issue as the Bosch unit - but I have heard of a couple of the Nippondenso-equipped cars having the same problem.
In my opinion, you'll want to get rid of the factory brake pads, in any case. They are NOT good.
What I suggest is that you put on a set of good ceramic pads, disconnect the ABS, then test the brakes under the same conditions as when the problem has been occurring. I'll almost bet that the brake rumble will disappear. My brakes have been FLAWLESS since I found and eliminated the cause(s). In fact, they have been better than ever before, notwithstanding the rumble problem. Granted, ditching the ABS IS a bit of a radical move. But, it was the only real solution I ever found (and I spent MONTHS and LOTS of money on this problem). Hopefully, you will not have to ditch your ABS. But, regrettably, I have a feeling that you might. I spoke with Toyota about this issue.....and the ONLY thing they could come up with was to replace the ABS unit - at MY expense. No, thank you - I was on the verge of ditching the car at this point - but I am glad (now) that I dealt with the problem as I did.
To disconnect the ABS, on the Bosch system, simply remove the big connector plugged in to the ABS unit, in the front/ passenger side area of the engine bay. There is a sliding catch for the plug.....but this is no problem, once you realise how it works. Don't worry, the brake system defaults to a "normal", non-ABS mode, with the ABS disconnected.... so braking is NOT affected. It is perfectly safe to drive the car this way....though you won't have the benefit of ABS (though, IF your ABS is malfunctioning....it isn't much good anyway).
Last edited by bcp477; 11-30-2009 at 08:04 PM.
The Following User Says Thank You to bcp477 For This Useful Post:
If you suspect it's wheel bearings, then find a safe place to do turns. The side getting the weight (wheel on the outside of a turn) should change noise pitch. So you'll hear pitch changes as you do leaning turns left and right. (Do it safely!)
Also, in some cases lightly applying brakes will quiet it down, not making it noisier. But I have heard a report of one owner replacing a wheel bearing and solve a vibration problem. But 52K miles is a bit early for bearings. They should last at least 150K miles on light weight sedans like the Camry.
Maybe with your friends help you can check the anchor pins. With two fingers try to move one. Does it move easily? It should. No sense taking to $$$ dealer for a simple check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytoy
Truthfully no, I didn't ask about anchor pins. I just assumed they knew what they were doing. Something came up today while talking with a friend. He said something about
it possibly being the start of a bad front wheel bearing. Noisy when under load...which is
exactly when this rumble occurs. Sound plausible?
If you suspect it's wheel bearings, then find a safe place to do turns. The side getting the weight (wheel on the outside of a turn) should change noise pitch. So you'll hear pitch changes as you do leaning turns left and right. (Do it safely!)
Also, in some cases lightly applying brakes will quiet it down, not making it noisier. But I have heard a report of one owner replacing a wheel bearing and solve a vibration problem. But 52K miles is a bit early for bearings. They should last at least 150K miles on light weight sedans like the Camry.
Maybe with your friends help you can check the anchor pins. With two fingers try to move one. Does it move easily? It should. No sense taking to $$$ dealer for a simple check.
Will give the anchor pins a look tomorrow. The rumble is non existent unless hard braking.
Swerving left or right causes no unusual sound, the typical test for bad wheel bearing. This is why I doubted a bad bearing but theory of early bearing failure signaled by sound when under
excessive load had merit. Will screw with this tomorrow.
BCP4777...appreciate your thorough explanation of your experience with the abs
system. Truthfully I've had this in back of my mind, hoping it not be the culprit. Btw,
how does one disable the abs on a 99 Camry? I'm loath to do so but worth knowing how
to do it. If easily disabled and easily re-enabled I may do so as a test if anchor pins reveal
nothing.
I don't know whether you have the Bosch or Nippondenso ABS. The Nippondenso system, I believe, was fitted to Japan-built Camrys....and once production was switched to the US plant, the cars all got the Bosch system. This was sometime around 96-97.....so I believe that your car has the Bosch ABS (like my '97). The reason I mention it is that the Denso system, unlike the Bosch, is in two parts.....the ABS accumulator/ valve body is in the engine bay and the computer for it is inside the passenger compartment. On the Bosch system, the whole works is in one unit - in the engine bay.
To disconnect the Bosch ABS (I've never seen the Denso, though it must be similar), look in the passenger side front of the engine bay, just forward of the coolant overflow tank.....and you'll find the ABS unit. It is the unit with 4 brake lines issuing from the top of the housing.....and extending to the rear (toward the back of the engine bay). Look on the top of the unit, to the right of the valve body (the portion with the brake lines coming out of the top). There is a wiring harness, with a very large plug, installed in the top of the ABS unit. This is the plug you want to disconnect. There is a smaller connector, on a small cable on the front side of the ABS unit.....that is NOT the one (I don't know what that connector is for....but just ignore it). To disconnect the large plug connector... on the back end of the connector, there is a sliding lock mechanism. It is hard to see, but it is there. Pull the slider toward the rear of the engine bay, to unlock the connector. Then, pull the connector straight up, until it disengages. This is a bit difficult - it will require a good bit of force to accomplish. I believe that a screwdriver can be used to pry the slide lock to the rear. Once you free the slide lock, the rest is easy. Disengaging the connector kills the power to the ABS unit and ABS computer.
As I said, the system automatically defaults to a failsafe mode (the ABS proportioning valves automatically stay open without power to the ABS unit).....so there is NO danger in driving the car with the ABS disconnected. There is an ABS warning light in the instrument cluster - that will stay on, with the ABS disconnected. When I did away with my ABS, I simply removed the bulb from the instrument cluster. There is NO effect on the ECU computer in the car - this is entirely separate from the ABS system.
I hope that this explanation is clear enough..... it's a rather tough thing to describe. Good luck and let us know how things turn out, won't you ?
As far as ABS goes, you should be able to pull the ABS motor relay and the ABS light will stay on. Then you know the ABS system is disabled.
Do this in a safe area, suitable for such tests. Drive very carefully even if the ABS should be bypassed by design, and you essentially end up with a conventional brake system. Make sure you have enough room to stop in case something goes wrong. Make sure it doesn't endanger yourself, your helpers, any innocent bystanders, trees, etc etc. (Ok, enough disclaimers. You get the idea.)
The Denso ABS system is a licensed production version of Bosch. The wirings are a bit different, but at least early model years all work pretty much identical with two-state instead of three-state solenoids.
If anchor pins checked out, bypassed ABS checked out, I would still have the dealer tickle the ABS solenoids and do a complete fluid flush of the secondary pressure relieving circuits. Don't let them take shortcuts. Make sure they go through the entire ABS purging procedure for all four corners. The manual says it's not necessary, but that's only if no air gets into the secondary circuits and pump area.
If you have pin outs you can build your own solenoid tickler. But a wrong move can burn out a solenoid or the pump motor, such as operating it more than a few seconds. So leave this to the dealer (if they actually knows how to do this. I don't really have that much confidence in their abilities either.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytoy
BCP4777...appreciate your thorough explanation of your experience with the abs
system. Truthfully I've had this in back of my mind, hoping it not be the culprit. Btw,
how does one disable the abs on a 99 Camry? I'm loath to do so but worth knowing how
to do it. If easily disabled and easily re-enabled I may do so as a test if anchor pins reveal
nothing.
I had a similar issue with my 97... hard braking especially coming down a highway off-ramp caused the car to shudder/rumble. It felt like the issue was in the front. I replaced the front pads and rear shoes, had the rotors turned (warped bad), had the drums turned twice, bought new rear drums (and returned them when it didn't fix the problem) and replaced a rear bearing assembly (it was squealing at the time). Still, no solution except the squealing was gone. Then I read a post about a sticking e-brake causing this issue. I figured it was the rear brakes causing the problem. Figuring I had nothing to lose, I replaced all of the hardware in the rear brakes (~$25 Napa). That was late last winter. Haven't had a problem since. Cheap fix too.
During the problem period, I could have sworn the problem was in the front of the car. As best as I can tell, the shuddering in the rear of the car was transferring to the front on heavy braking. That caused the front rotors to warp.
My TMC (Japan origin) '98 2.2L does this also. New front brakes and struts at all 4 corners improved but did not fix it. I suspect it is the rear drums as they only seem to be used when braking quite hard. Shoes are less than half worn with 117K miles. I get a slight intermittent rubbing when turning one rear wheel while jacked up indicating a runout issue. Stuck emergency brake is something I never thought of, but that should be easy to detect when the car is on jacks. Try using the emergency brake only next time you pull off the highway and see if you still notice the rumble. Just do not do it if someone is behind you as your brake lights will not be on. It take a pretty good tug on the brake lever to get the rears to grip btw.
My 98 does the same thing when braking hard. If breaking gently there's no rumble. The car brakes fine and doesnt vibrate when this happens, all just noise. Im just leaving it as is. Its just noise not a big deal.
Gonna be doing the rear drums soon enough so ill get then turned and make sure everything's good. I know for a fact my e brake isnt sticking either.
Intesting. Rear brakes causing the fronts to vibrate.
The rear brake shoes are used by both the normal and parking brakes. So if it's not properly adjusted I suppose you would have problems. And if it's not properly lubed I guess it'll bind a little. But brakes should be periodically cleaned and lubed. So do that first.
Stopped at my friends garage today, took a short run with the car up
to speeds of 50mph. Rapid braking didn't reproduce the rumble today.
Btw, anchor pins are ok.
Absolutely no question, the rumble noise I'm experiencing is from
front wheels, not rear.
Plan to bring into Toyota Dealer tomorrow, same dealer that did the recent
brake work. We'll see if they can diagnose. Dealer is located along a hwy so
good area to demo the issue. Will report back with outcome....
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