Steering System Experts: Rack and Pinion/Inner TRE Tests

[peshwa]

I replaced the outer tie rod ends and ball joints last weekend with moog stuff. Got the car aligned at Firestone. And now I find that my steering wheel jerks whenever I go over a pothole and I can experience rapid toe in/out changes while driving
I promptly got down to 3-9 wheel test in P gear and the steering rack boots covering inner TRE show movement. More pronounced on the right front wheel but exists also at the left front wheel. However if I pull at the inner TREs by hand there is no movement whatsoever.
Last weekend while i was replacing the outer TREs (and outer TREs were disconnected) I observed the TRs would not hold position. The TRs would fall down as soon as I let go of them. Soon after the wheel alignment the steering wheel was tight but now its back to its sloppy ways again.

• Is there any standard test for Rack and Pinion/Inner TREs?
• I found this clip on youtube but its for a Volkswagon Inner TREs.
  
• You Tube

  You Tube

• BTW my tie rods behave exactly as the one in above video does after 0:27 secs.
• Is this a valid test for inner tie rod/rack and pinion?

Please help me guys. This baby is my daily driver and its screaming for medicine

[toyomoho]

What lead you to change the parts?

Did you have the same driving issues before doing the repairs?

The inner tie rod ends will flop around, this is normal.

If doing the 3 and 9 o'clock test make sure the steering wheel is not moving as a result and thus the boots. You should be able to pull the boot off the steering rack housing to directly watch for inner tie rod movement.

One the off chance make sure the inner tie rod ends are fully screwed into the rack.

Check the lower ball joint for play using a bar, control arm bushings and upper strut mount (typically the strut mount makes a knocking noise when going of bumps if failing).

Also check the wheel bearing/axle for excess play. You should be able to do this by shaking the tire.

[Gibson99]

i agree with what toyomoho has said above. very accurate and succinct.

only other thing i'd add would be to try jacking up the front end to get the tires off the ground, then sit in the car with your head hanging out where you can see the tires - jiggle the steering wheel slowly in VERY small movements to check for slack. shouldn't be more than a few mm of play before you see the wheels begin to move.

as for the dynamic toe change, check the bolts/bushings at the back ends of the lower control arms. i saw a car where these bolts were missing and it would make some hellacious clunking noises during braking, and was all over the road on uneven surfaces, especially grooved pavement. might behave similarly if the bushings are broken/worn.

[peshwa]

Thanks a Ton toyomoho and gibson99. You guys are like angels for me

Originally Posted by toyomoho

What lead you to change the parts?

• Front Left tire wear indicated bad ball joint.
• A pry bar test on both front TREs showed play.
• 3-9 TRE test on both wheels showed play.
• Play in steering wheel.
• Steering wheel jerked a bit/car wandered after going over bumps,road unevenness.
• There was a creak coming from Front Right side wheel going over small bumps. Interestingly after alignment last week the steering wheel the creak stopped completely for some days. Came back again with all above symptoms.

Did you have the same driving issues before doing the repairs?

Unfortunately YES.

If doing the 3 and 9 o'clock test make sure the steering wheel is not moving as a result and thus the boots. You should be able to pull the boot off the steering rack housing to directly watch for inner tie rod movement.

The steering wheel DOES move while doing the 3-9 test.

Check the lower ball joint for play using a bar, control arm bushings and upper strut mount (typically the strut mount makes a knocking noise when going of bumps if failing).

No play at all in the Ball joints and TREs.The ball joints, TREs are brand new and aligned just last week. BTW does the CAB have any role to play in the 3-9 wheel test?

Also check the wheel bearing/axle for excess play. You should be able to do this by shaking the tire.

I did this test several times in the past and no "shake" visible. I will have a helper do all these tests tomorrow while I watch.

Originally Posted by Gibson99

only other thing i'd add would be to try jacking up the front end to get the tires off the ground, then sit in the car with your head hanging out where you can see the tires - jiggle the steering wheel slowly in VERY small movements to check for slack. shouldn't be more than a few mm of play before you see the wheels begin to move.

Did that today and observed there is good amount of play in the steering wheel. Overall the steering wheel feels "loose". It was very tight when it came out of the alignment shop.

as for the dynamic toe change, check the bolts/bushings at the back ends of the lower control arms. i saw a car where these bolts were missing and it would make some hellacious clunking noises during braking, and was all over the road on uneven surfaces, especially grooved pavement. might behave similarly if the bushings are broken/worn.

I took a pry bar and tried to wiggle the control arm bushings. They did move up and down but felt very tight.
Again I request you guys to guide me and respond back. You guys are doing me a BIG favor.

[peshwa]

^ Need your help guys...any help/advice based on above write-up is *highly* appreciated!

[peshwa]

Advise ...advise me (gents and ladies out there)

Originally Posted by peshwa

^ Need your help guys...any help/advice based on above write-up is *highly* appreciated!

[Gibson99]

well we've covered all the main stuff, without seeing the car, there's not much more we can do honestly. unfortunately it sounds like you have an unusual problem somewhere in the front end. that's why there are front end specialists out there who do nothing else. if you can't bring it back to the place you had it aligned and ask them to look at it again (it's entirely possible they left something loose (jam nut on outer tie rod end?)) then take it to another shop. seems to me the original shop would have SOME sort of warranty on their work.

[73sport]

2 cents: packed with random thoughts. . .

If i were to check for issues, the lower A-arm bushings and the rack mount bushings would likley be the first place to look. They must hold the A-arms to deliver the torque to the road and accelerate/brake the car. With the engine off, car on the ground, wheels on, rock the steering wheel back and forth just enough to take the play out while a person underneath looks and finds every bit of slop. A trained eye can see and feel issues. Your tilt column has a joint as does the colum to the rack. Are these OK?

Perhaps in your case there is a need to isolate bumb steer from torque steer?
Although a bad wheel alignment can enhance torqure steer as will loose parts.

Bump steer: Has the car ever been wrecked or curbed REAL hard? A bent spindle at the tie rod mount can give you a Zero Toe (during alignment) but Drive HORRIBLE as the toe out on turns is whacked as soon as you deviate from driving straight.

Bump steer: In a PM to me you stated the rack mounts were saturated with oil. Fix the leak that turned them into sponges and replace them. If the rack moves its going to drive bad. Do you have the print from the alignment? Can you tell us where it was and where it is alignment wise?
Toe, Caster, camber, set-back, ect. . .? Did they include the rear toe?

Also: a worn rack that provides MORE power assist one way than the other will give you the driver a real bad feeling when driving. Does it exhibit this?

Is the car a soaked oil mess underneath? If so, replace the rubber A-Arm bushings and rack mount bushings. Although you can't leverage them with a prybar, they are liklely very soft and allow movement thus causing issues.

As for the lower ball joints; most people will never be able to check them properly as they have a hard time keeping them in their plane of operation (at car ride height) and unloaded so they can detect movement. Usually you need to have the car at ride height and place a very strong support between the body and the strut to keep the strut/spring from coming down. Now lift the body and allow the wheels to hang. MOST but not all of the stress is off the ball joint and it can be checked for looseness. Toyota makes some good parts. But they can fail early if the car was routinly drivin in water and or submerged on regular basis Or if the boots are torn allowing dirt & moisture in and the grease out. Is this the case on your car?

My 95 V6 has 216k (now) and is getting a tad more torque steer as things loosen. That is, on the gas it goes right and off the gas it goes left ever so slightly. Most people compensate automatically and would hardly notice. The inner tie rods have a tiny bit of play but not enough to through money at as the whole thing is wearing out as one.

I hope this helps. I second the opinion of a another shop looking. I think the first guys are missing something.