1995 Camry 5SFE wont start - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums
3rd & 4th Generation (1992–1996 & 1997–2001) Toyota Camry Discussion for years: 1992-1996 & 1997-2001 Topics of discussion range from fuel economy, safety, modifications, performance all involving America's favorite family car, the Toyota Camry.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
#1 Old 01-09-2010, 03:31 PM
New TN User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
(Thread Starter)
3rd Generation 1995 Camry 5SFE wont start

Hello,
I have a 1995 camry that died while driving and wont start. Sounds simple, get fuel, spark at the proper time and go. The spark seems weak, I replaced the coil, no help. At a toyota mechanics suggestion I replaced the distributor and ignitor, no help. Timing belt and timing good, fuel is definately getting in the cylinders. Bypass fuel pump (jumper FP to B+ on diagnostic connector) and you can hear and feel excess fuel pressure routing back to tank from fuel pressure regulator return line. Figured maybe pressure was low, pinched return line and tried to start, no help. With a spark plug (platinum type) about a half inch or so from ground the spark will jump to ground and plug fire repeatedly, spark appears yellowish (dont know if its good or not). Check engine light does come on and if jumper TE1 and E1 get flash every half second, no codes. Checked ground wires on engine and used ohmmeter to check ground continuity, checked good. Tried running jumper cable from battery negative post to several spots on engine and ignitor bracket, no help. Loaded ignition coil positive wire to coil using a brake lamp to ground and lamp lights bright, I know it is not a bad connection and carries current. Even though new distributor verified coil and pick up coils resistance check good. Pulled valve cover and with #1 cylinder at top dead center and camshaft lined up correct valves are off cam lobes, valve clearance good at #1 and #4 cylinder TDC. Engine just rotates, never fires or tries to start. The tach does bump up when rotating and IG feedback to ECM suspect good. I wonder if anyone can help, especially with the spark, is it good? Any ideas would be appreciated.
Thank you
Update, I checked compression and it is good on all 4 cylinders. I checked spark with a spark tester. The gap it jumps is too small. It is a cheap tester but has gap setting for standard ignition, electronic, 3KV and 4KV. ALthough it isnt anything great the spark wouldnt jump to the standard gap. I am checking another vehicle now, will up date results of ignition tester.
Thanks.

Last edited by cuphoff; 01-09-2010 at 07:58 PM. Reason: Update
cuphoff is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 01-09-2010, 07:59 PM
New TN User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
(Thread Starter)
Update, I checked compression and it is good on all 4 cylinders. I checked spark with a spark tester. The gap it jumps is too small. It is a cheap tester but has gap setting for standard ignition, electronic, 3KV and 4KV. ALthough it isnt anything great the spark wouldnt jump to the standard gap. I am checking another vehicle now, will up date results of ignition tester.
Thanks.
cuphoff is offline  
#3 Old 01-09-2010, 08:30 PM
New TN User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
(Thread Starter)
Second update: testing the ignition with the ignition tester on an oldsmobile 3.4L (I know its a different ignition system) jumped in excess of the 3KV setting, over an inch gap with a nice blue spark. On my camry it only jumps a gap about 1/8", the standard minimum ignition setting on the tester is about 1/4 inch. The electronic ignition setting on the tester is 10mm (.39"). I suspect if my ignition system was good it would jump a gap in excess of 1/2" at least. Any ideas based on whats already known what could be causing my weak ignition problem?
Thank you
cuphoff is offline  
#4 Old 01-09-2010, 09:46 PM
Official TN Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 78
Blog Entries: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 15
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Do You Have Internal Or External Coil??
yotatoter is offline  
#5 Old 01-09-2010, 10:00 PM
New TN User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
(Thread Starter)
Internal ignition coil, it was replaced twice, first by itself, then with the new distributor.
cuphoff is offline  
#6 Old 01-09-2010, 10:38 PM
Ninja wrench anywhere
 
hill8570's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 1,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 7
Thanked 149 Times in 145 Posts
iTrader Score: 1 reviews
Well, as you've already figured out, you've got a real weak spark (yeah, I know...duh). Nice job of diagnosis so far.

You don't mention age or condition of wires. When you check spark is it at the plug end of the wires, or at the dizzy end (i.e., no wire)?

If the dizzy end is weak (and I'd check that before suggesting that you shotgun in new plug wires), next thing I'd suggest is the coil. However, it sounds like the coil should be considered "good", although I'd probably still test the primary / secondary resistance just to make sure there isn't a connection issue (the FSM at www.camrystuff.com , Generation 3, Ignition System section has the specs for the primary and secondary of the coil). Since the ignitor has been changed out (and they don't crap out too often anyhow), I'd also start looking at the grounding in the area of the dizzy and the ignitor. Crappy grounding could give a weak signal from the ignitor, which would give a weak spark. If you're feeling techy, you could also pop off the dizzy cap, put 12V on the IG2 input of the dizzy (one side of the coil), and ground / no ground the other side of the coil primary (the input usually coming from the ignitor), and watch your spark then. If she still ain't blue and big, then it's gotta be the coil or the connections to/from it, new coil or no.
hill8570 is offline  
#7 Old 01-09-2010, 10:38 PM
Certifiably Insane
 
96paseo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Carversville, PA
Posts: 1,575
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Thanks: 40
Thanked 171 Times in 156 Posts
Garage
iTrader Score: 1 reviews
Check your injectors for reference voltage. Remove the connector from cyl#1 then turn the key to "on". Ground your negative probe to the block and probe the pins on the connector for 5 volts. Plug wires new I suppose? Any carbon tracks or arcing in the spark plug tubes?

1996 Paseo 5E-FE 270k miles SOLD!! Sadly, sadly is gone now.. so sad
1993 Camry LE 5S-FE 292k miles -Underbody painting and cleanup underway.
1997 Mazda B2300 252k miles - Why deer have to jump in front of me??

Last edited by 96paseo; 01-09-2010 at 10:40 PM.
96paseo is offline  
#8 Old 01-09-2010, 10:42 PM
One with the force
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 54 Times in 50 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuphoff View Post
... spark appears yellowish (dont know if its good or not).
Not good. Spark should be bright blue. Ignitor is just a switch for coil controlled by ECM. Somewhere you're not getting full voltage. Have you checked primary voltage level to coil?

1995 Camry Wagon LE. 2.2 4cyl, 5S-FE, Auto, 187K
Stillrunning is offline  
#9 Old 01-09-2010, 11:15 PM
New TN User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
(Thread Starter)
Hill8570 Thanks for the input. I checked spark at plug end of wires, although I will check at distributor end tomorrow. Plug wires are old although resistance check good, all about 12.7 KOhms. I know that doesnt mean insulation is good but remember, the car was running and then died. I doubt all 4 plug wires went bad at the same time. I have already checked primary and secondary ignition coil resistances and they are good and were on the first two coils as well. I also suspected grounding, that is why in addition to checking it with an ohmmeter at all points on the engine I also used a set of jumper cabes, and went from ground at serveral points on engine including ignitor bracket/distrilbutor to battery ground, no help. I will try your dizzy primary coil seperate power and ground trick, thanks.
96paseo I dont think fuel is problem, lots of that but will check injector reference voltage. Plug wires are old but serviceable. No, no signs of arcing in the spark plug tubes, thanks for the input.
stillrunning yes spark is weak although blue when using the ignition tester/spark plug tester, just not bright and will only jump a small gap. Yes I did check primary voltage, it is good. I also removed the positive wire to the coil and with key to ignition "on" postion had a wire run to a spare brake light lamp I had rigged up with a couple aligator clips and had the coil positive light the lamp, it was very bright and drawing about 1 amp of current. I have not checked distributor pick up coil wires for continuity to the ECM yet, (NE+, G+, G- and NE-). I figured if they were bad connections I would be getting no spark at all.
Thank you all for your input, I will perform your suggested troubleshooting and report back.
have a great weekend

Last edited by cuphoff; 01-09-2010 at 11:20 PM.
cuphoff is offline  
#10 Old 01-10-2010, 07:35 AM
One with the force
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 54 Times in 50 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
I assume new rotor and dist. cap. You say you have fuel, but I would buy a can of starting fluid (ether) and spray down throttle body to see if at least you get a burp, it will ignite easier than gas. Spark still points to voltage problem. I've seen coils check out for resistance but when replaced engine runs. Were coil replacements aftermarket?

1995 Camry Wagon LE. 2.2 4cyl, 5S-FE, Auto, 187K
Stillrunning is offline  
#11 Old 01-10-2010, 08:45 AM
New TN User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
(Thread Starter)
Stillrunning, yes new rotor and cap, already ahead of you on the starting fluid, tried it and did not fire, no help. Yes both coil replacements were aftermarket but different vendors and both coils primary resistance are in range and secondary as well 11-12K ohm. I know, I have seen bad parts from stock before but I doubt 3 bad coils including original that all resistance checked good but were bad? But anything is possible and I cant discount it until proven otherwise. Thanks for your help still running
cuphoff is offline  
#12 Old 01-10-2010, 01:23 PM
One with the force
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 54 Times in 50 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Signal rotors send timing signals to ECM and are just for timing spark, they do not determine distributor voltage, unless I guess if insufficient dwell then reduced primary would reduce secondary. I assume new dist would have new signal rotors and if they were not functioning then no spark, not some spark. System is pretty simple. If you could take coil out of your car and put into properly running Camry, that would prove out coil. I still think you need to look at coil output, as weak spark in ambient pressure is no spark in cylinder compression pressure. If as you say you have timing, compression, fuel, but poor spark then good spark is generated by 12v primary, good output secondary, and in spec resistance for wires. You haven't replaced wires yet but assume only one would be bad at any one time - maybe not??

1995 Camry Wagon LE. 2.2 4cyl, 5S-FE, Auto, 187K
Stillrunning is offline  
#13 Old 01-10-2010, 05:55 PM
New TN User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
(Thread Starter)
Hill8570, Stillrunning and 96Paseo, thanks for all your help, especially Hill8570, you got me thinking "old school" again and that brought the troubleshooting over the top. As you all indicated and are correct, this is pretty simple, not rocket science. But it kicked my butt, thats why I was on this site soliciting help! I used Hill8570's idea and got the ECM/Igniter new school stuff out of the picture. Manually removed the ground from the ignition coil primary and inserted my own wire to battery ground and tapped it like the old points we used to use with ignition systems and still only got the 1/8" spark. Then checked it at the Dizzy, same thing all distributor plug positions, 1/8" spark. Then staying old school, I removed the dizzy cap and rotor and hooked directly to the ign coil secondary contact and using the spark tester got a bright blue spark to jump over an inch! So I knew it was either the cap or rotor, both of which were changed twice. The only auto parts store open only had a rotor, no cap, I replaced the rotor and spark was great, car fired right up. Going forward I will never buy any aftermarket chinese crap again. First thing tomorrow I am buying a toyota igition coil, cap, rotor and spark plug wires. I had a 1992 Camry with the same ignition system as I have now, had a coil go bad, had a capacitor short out only when really cold and was blowing the 30 Amp AM2 fuse. I kept telling myself today, when these ignition systems go bad, its always in the Dizzy one way or another and of course it was again. Pretty easy to find once you think about it like Hill8570, but this bad parts from stock stuff has really changed my attitude towards aftermarket parts. I have seen threads on here where people are talking "use genuine toyota parts"... well I will never again get burned like this. Live and learn, once again thank you for all for your help. I dont know whether I am more embarrased about my troubleshooting or my choice of replacement parts, both were lacking with this ignition problem.
Best regards,
cuphoff

Last edited by cuphoff; 01-10-2010 at 06:06 PM.
cuphoff is offline  
#14 Old 01-10-2010, 09:03 PM
Ninja wrench anywhere
 
hill8570's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 1,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 7
Thanked 149 Times in 145 Posts
iTrader Score: 1 reviews
No school like the old school

Don't beat yourself up on the troubleshooting. Most folks these days (even a number of so-called mechanics) just start shotgunning parts that might be vaguely related to the problem -- you did a bang-up job of narrowing down the issue.

Glad to see one more convert to the "I hate auto store parts" club. Time was, aftermarket was as good or better than OEM. Now that most of the aftermarket stuff comes from Chinese factories with completely random quality control, aftermarket is a total crapshoot.
hill8570 is offline  
#15 Old 01-10-2010, 09:54 PM
Slowly learning....
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 396
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
If you do go aftermarket, don't buy the crap from local auto stores. Rockauto.com carries a lot of quality OEM spec stuff. And for wires and such you can always go NGK.

1996 Toyota Camry | 4 Cyl. 2.2L | Black Paint with Tan Interior | All Stock | DEAD at 155k. Broken Crankshaft/Main Bearing
Retrospekt is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums > Toyota Passenger and Sports Car Forums > Camry and Solara Forum > 3rd & 4th Generation (1992–1996 & 1997–2001)

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome