1994 2.2l runs but no power

[coyemory]

Hey,

I am helping my son work on his Camry and we are stumped. He had a cracked coil in the distributor and bought used distributor from a salvage yard. He installed it and test drove the car and all was well for a few miles. On the way home the car cut off and wouldn't restart. He reinstalled the old distributor and the car still wouldn't start with the distributor in the middle of the adjustment arc where it has always been. After checking compression, presence of gas and a good blue spark we cranked the distributor all the way to the right and the car started but had no power. He purchased the car used and since the car has 170k miles and he hadn't replaced the timing belt we determined that maybe the timimg belt was a tooth off. We purchased a kit that contained the water pump, belt, idler pulley and the tensioner pulley. We installed the parts and after checking the timing 5 times, crank pulley mark on 0, distributor rotor button pointing to number 1 cylinder and cam "V" timing mark covered by the hole in the spider we still had to crank the distributor all the way to the right (clockwise) to get the engine to start. When we shine a timing light on the crank pulley we can adjust the timing to between the 0 and 15 degrees marks and when you give the engine a little throttle the timimg advances. I put a jumper in T1 and TE1 but don't see a lot of difference and according to the manual I have I should see the timing advance between 12 and 22 degrees when I pull the jumper out. As I said we are stumped. I don't have the special tool to test the fuel pressure and my Son thinks it is a fuel pressure problem. I think it might be a computer problem. any ideals would be appreciated. If I left anything out of this or if you need more information let me know and I will repost.

Thanks,

Coy

[warlock]

it dose sound like a fuel issue. but the cheak engein light should come on. and to tell the truth i'm stumped too.

[coyemory]

I mis typed the jumpers for setting the timing. The jumper I should have typed is E1 to TE1. Sorry for any confusion.

Coy

[73sport]

Well you state a couple of issues: The first thing that came to mind after the first problem (maybe not the correct solution) was that the misfire from the bad ignition (original parts/original problem) plugged up the cat. Unburned gas hitting the cat will make it real hot as it tries to burn that raw fuel, thus it might have plugged it.

It sounds like you hit all the important marks. The only thing I’d do different is this:

Remove the #1 spark plug. Turn the engine by hand until you feel compression build in #1 cylinder. A finger or thumb in the plug whole will do. Now continue to rotate the crank until the timing marks align at zero. Confirm belt position. Confirm cam position. Confirm distributor rotor position. The rotor should be pointed to the caps #1 position going to the #1 cylinder.

If all this is good and you still suspect a fuel issue. Prime a couple or all four plug positions with fuel. Like a ½ teaspoon. Install plugs and wires. If it runs for a few seconds you are now on a new journey with a fuel issue.

Honestly I think you might be 180 out on the cam timing – confirm TDC has compression (both intake and exhaust valves are closed) and the cam is in the right place as well as the rotor. Tell us what you see!

[coyemory]

All, Thanks for the responses. Here are my answers and observations of this problem. I tried to list most of the problems and troubleshooting steps to make sure anyone that read this would have the complete issue. I used a Haynes manual along with a couple of articles from the WEB to double check the manual. The only descripancy found was the Hanyes manual says set the timing to the "S" marker and the WEB says 10 degrees BTDC. Both said to jumper E1 and TE1.

A suggestions was made to put a teaspoon of gas in each cylinder and attempt to start it. The engine already runs so this step isn't worthwhile.

A suggestion was made to determine TDC and insure the marks were lined up. I place a thin screwdriver in the Number 1 cylinder and turned the engine over by hand to detemine TDC. The Cam timing mark behind the onle in the cam pulley was covering up the "V" mark on the cambearing housing, the crankshaft pullley was at the "0" timing mark on the belt cover and the rotor button was pointing at the Number 1 plug wire on the distributor.

A suggestion was made to ensure that both the Intake and the Exhaust valves are closed at TDC. I haven't pulled the valve cover off to actually see this.

A suggestion was made that the Cat converter might be plugged. This car will barely run and if you blip the throttle it stumbles and sometimes cuts off even if the engine has just been started (within 1 minute of running). I know a CAT converter will greatly diminish engine performance but I don't believe it is the case here.

Here is what I am wondering and perhaps someone out there has seen this.

I believe the ECM or whatever they call the computer is not telling the plugs to fire at the correct time and is in effect changing the timing, or is the engine starving for gas because of a fuel pump/filter/pressure regulator. By the way the fuel filter has been changed in the last year but not the pump.

Does anyone have a way to make fuel pump tester for a Camry?

Thanks for all of the replies,

Coy

[73sport]

I'll be the guy who suggested somethings. . .

If you have: air, fuel, compression, and a spark at the right time it will run. It may not run well but it will run.

So the question is, what can you totally eliminate from the equation?

- Does it have compression? Do you have a gauge?
To determine if the engine is on top dead center and firing, use your finger in the #1 plug hole to see if compression is building. ((Do this with a wrench and you don't have to pull the valve cover)). If it doesn't have compression the valve timing is off no matter what marks you see. Not to be negative but, IF these are an interferance fit engine you could have bent valves if the timimg was off and the engine turned over.
- Does it sound normal during cranking????
- does it have water in the gas
- does it have gas
- does the #1 plug fire consistantly
- are the plugs fouled? That is, they MAY work in the air but fail under load (compression). Replace the plugs.
- do you have pressure gauge capable of reading manifold injector pressure?
- if you leave a plug-wire out and run it a short while (30sec idle), is that plug wet with fuel? If no, then maybe its getting little fuel.
If yes AND IT HAS COMPRESSION, than I'd say you're back to ignition or ignition timing. No power means wrong ignition/valve timing. Detonation is too lean. No power is plugged exhaust. . .

You can pull a plug wire off leaving it attached to an old spark plug which is grounded to the block. Now watch it spark at idle. The point being is it consistent. Does it jump, move, or change. Is it purple or yellow, is it there at all. *** NEVER RUN AN ENGINE WITH AN OPEN PLUG WIRE! Always route it through a used plug to system ground or risk killing electronics!

Without taking it to a shop I'm trying to give building blocks you have at home to isolate this condition. Did you ever have to tap, pry or beat on the distributor for any reason? It could have damage the pickup (does it have one?).

Just ideas . . .

EDIT: from your original post, that cracked coil could have done some damage to other critical electronic part via induction or feed-back. If its arc 40-50kV made its way back to pickup coils, amplifiers, ECU ect none of these devices have the ability to withstand a jolt of 500volts let alone 20,000 plus. Pull the schematic and see what all is involved as I suspect its bit something!

[coyemory]

OK, I ran a compression test on the engine when I started working on it the first time. I mentioned that in the orignal post. All were a little low 130 psi but it does have 170,000 miles on it.

I believe the problem is "Spark at the right time" if the cam, the crank and the rotor button all are in the right area how can the timing be off? How would I diagnose that?

Accordong to the research I have done this is NOT an interference engine.

I have not checked for water in the gas but when I crank it up and it is idling it is smooth and steady. When you give it gas it stumbles.

I have a good BLUE spark when I tested and it fires consistantly according to what I see on the plug as well as my timing light.

The distributor currently in the car is a remanufactured one that was purchased last Friday from Autozone

Thanks for the ideas, if everything is lined up per the book what could have changed the timing. Once upon a time I think Chevy had a problem with the harmonic balancer where the outer part slipped. Has anyone seen this on a Toyota?

[chronoti]

Originally Posted by coyemory

A suggestion was made to ensure that both the Intake and the Exhaust valves are closed at TDC. I haven't pulled the valve cover off to actually see this.

A suggestion was made that the Cat converter might be plugged. This car will barely run and if you blip the throttle it stumbles and sometimes cuts off even if the engine has just been started (within 1 minute of running). I know a CAT converter will greatly diminish engine performance but I don't believe it is the case here.

Here is what I am wondering and perhaps someone out there has seen this.

I believe the ECM or whatever they call the computer is not telling the plugs to fire at the correct time and is in effect changing the timing, or is the engine starving for gas because of a fuel pump/filter/pressure regulator. By the way the fuel filter has been changed in the last year but not the pump.

Does anyone have a way to make fuel pump tester for a Camry?

Thanks for all of the replies,

Coy

yes your local part store prolly rents it, and it just a inline test kit,

quick way to test the cat is take it out, cant be worst then a fart can ricer

i would doubt ecm, i would double check the distro and the timing in that

[chronoti]

the 7m supra's had that problem..... but when they did it it chewed up the key way and you need to buy a new crank, btw i need a 7m crank.

to check the timming would just aim with a timming gun, just make sure it sits between 0-10 btdc (will dancea little)

try resetting the ecu by pulling the efi fuse for about a min and see if that helps any

[Mike Gerber]

10 degrees before TDC is the correct timing with TE1 and E1 jumpered.

Just an FYI. You can download a Toyota factory service manual at the top of the Camry forum over at AutomotiveForums.com. The manuals are stickied there at the top. Download the generation 3 manual. I believe is it actually a 94 manual.

Mike

[AlmightyCamry777]

It sounds like an ignition problem since that's how it started. Although you could have one or more dead fuel injectors, it doesn't happen often that more then one goes out at the same time. Toyota injectors are self-cleaning for the most part, and when an injector goes out, most of the time it just quits completely.

A suggestion was made that the Cat converter might be plugged. This car will barely run and if you blip the throttle it stumbles and sometimes cuts off even if the engine has just been started (within 1 minute of running). I know a CAT converter will greatly diminish engine performance but I don't believe it is the case here.

Could be! Since it runs, put your hand over the (hopefully cool) exhaust pipe and feel the engine pulses. If you can't feel anything, or it is very weak, it might be plugged after all.
Since the problem happened before you changed the t-belt, i'm assuming you put the belt on right when you changed it (and if you didn't then you are dealing with multiple problems -)

Does this car has a crankshaft sensor, if so this might need to be checked also.

[73sport]

True - it should blow out the blow hole. . .
An easier way to check the cat rather than dealing with the rust and crust of disconnecting it is to pull an O2 sensor just ahead of it. Its nice sized hole and will allow it pull some RPM under load. If it starts, runs, revs, and sounds like a jet engine under the car, that could be it.

The cars i've encountered with plugged cats, idle well but won't pull any rpm or make any power. Like, not shift out of 1st gear their so gutless.

As for the balancer, I saw picture of guy pulling his balancer on this site using a jaw on the ribs of the serpentine belt groves. Not cool. Although it came off, it could destroy the rubber itself or the bond and cause it rotate, move, slip. ect . . Have a latent failure down the road over time. . . He did say, "you should use an internal puller" which is 100% correct.

So the current status is:
Idles, and stumbles during acceleration.
Is there black smoke out the back?
Is the Cat hot.
Will it rev to 4000rpm and hold it. If not, is it stumbling so bad that whay???
What do the plugs look like? Are they wet if you do this? <no spark, and running rich>
How old are the plugs. Could they be fouled? Can you close the gap, does it help it run better?

The compression test AFTER the timing belt is vital information. An engine with no compression will run, but it just won't make any power. That's whay I asked. If you did it and came up 90 psi, would that mean anything?

Of course I wish I had hours to study everything and read every detail over and over but I don't so I'm just trying to throw out potential ideas as I scan through it. Ideas with no answers leave doubt. I hope you can understand.

So does this comment make any sense to any of you:
>>: from your original post, that cracked coil could have done some damage to other critical electronic part via induction or feed-back. If its arc 40-50kV made its way back to pickup coils, amplifiers, ECU ect none of these devices have the ability to withstand a jolt of 500volts let alone 20,000 plus. Pull the schematic and see what all is involved as I suspect its bit something!

[coyemory]

73 Sport,

Yes your questions make sense, here are the answers I have currently. BTW, I got my hands on another computer and will try it this weekend time permitting, it is Valentine weekend.

I have not noticed any black smoke from the tail pipe but need to double check that this weekend

The car will idle and warm normally but have not checked the CAT, will do this weekend

If you feed the gas slowly it will rev. Not sure If I have revved it to 4,000 rpm. If you snap the throttle it stumbles and sometimes cuts off.

The plugs are about 3 months old and did not appear fouled

Have not run a compression check since replacing the timing belt. Will try to recheck this weekend

[popeyethesadist]

my vote is a fuel pump failingor plugged filter. Most times when a pump goes out they run as described. Will even shoot a lil fuel out of a schrader (if eqipped w/ one) but not enough to rev up. Need to check pressure, parts stores should have a loaner gauge. i say this because nothing was mentioned about backfiring and if out even a little on timing there should be or have been some backfiring going on.

[coyemory]

Ok guys,

Replaced the fuel pump and the computer, still no joy. Disconnected the exhaust pipe and ran to eliminate the CAT, same problem. Going to replace the fuel filter today or tomorrow, will let you know what happens. Also I'll test fuel pressure when I figure out how to hook a gage into the system. This one doesn't have a schrader valve. I also am replacing the distributor cap and rotor. Will re-run compression test and post results.

Can anyone tell me how to test the fuel pressure regulator? As I understand the regulator is vacuum operated and will open to allow more fuel if engine demand requires it, i.e., more throttle.

Again, thanks for everyones help and suggestions.

Coy