3rd & 4th Generation (1992–1996 & 1997–2001)Toyota Camry Discussion for years: 1992-1996 & 1997-2001
Topics of discussion range from fuel economy, safety, modifications, performance all involving America's favorite family car, the Toyota Camry.
Well after doing a search on this subject (knocks) and a couple hours of informitive reading on the 3VZF-FE, I thought I'd throw the most recent dilemma of my '93 Camry wagon out in the open. Well it goes like this...after a successful head gasket replacement, along with a new water pump, several hoses, a couple new caps and having the radiator professionally cleaned, the car is running like a champ once again. Fires right up with the first click of the key and runs flawlessly for nearly 500 miles, much too my and my dads amazement, whom helped me through the nearly painful job. Then wham! It started when I fueled up with gas and proceeded home after work on what became a soaking wet rainy day like no other. I'm driving up a very steep street when the skies just let loose and next thing I know i'm doing less than 10mph. What the ****? No power as the engine starts crapping out, I stop and back into a driveway and sit level and let the engine sputter back to an idle. Then I take off down the steep hill in hopes to regain normal engine power and speed on an alternate route home. No go. I pull over to the right and park with the engine running just before the bottom of the hill and let it idle for a few minutes and the oil light starts flickering lightly. Then a light scraping of metallic noise develops and I decide to take off around the corner and down a flat stretch of road and see how it's running. Low on power and the scraping turns to a faint knocking as I start up a very small incline with the rain finally subsiding. I'm thinkin not good and shut it down before things get worse and call for a tow. Just then it dawns on me...did I replace my gas cap after refueling? No, it's sitting on roof stuck in the rack!
Great, I put the cap back on thinking that was an easy fix as pressure will be restored to the fuel system and I'll be on my way. Yeah right, no such luck! So I get towed back over to pops house and the next day discover the timing belt was rather slack with un-uniform tension and the belt had slipped a tooth or so as the tensioner pulley and actuator had seemed to fail, so we replaced them along with a new idler-pulley and timing belt as well. All the timing marks were in the correct positions, fired it up and still a fairly noisy knock coming from the #4 cylinder area. Pulled the valve cover on the front bank and ran it for a minute with the cover off and everything looked in order but the knock is still there but not quite as loud. Everything is back together enough to run and listening with a stethoscope, the knock seems to be at the #4 cylinder. I'm gonna try pulling the spark plug to that cylinder and see what that presents. Next step I suppose I'll pull that head again. Any more ideas anyone can think of, I'm all ears (finally) and appreciate any suggestions....thanks!
Why were you running the engine without valve covers on, did you have oil in it?
Taking the gas cap off does nothing to your fuel pressure going to the engine, just to let you know.
If your head gasket blew after you did it for whatever reason (bad head to block surface, reuse old gasket, etc) and your coolant got in your oil, and you kept running it, = spun bearing. Your engine will lose a TON of power if you have a spun bearing, trust me I know first hand it also resonates through the motor so it sounds like it's coming from the top end. If it sort of sounds like a clicking when you rev it at all, that is a spun bearing. If you keep driving it like that you'll permanently ruin the crank, so be careful.
Is your coolant bottle low (or overflowing), oil milky or possibly white smoke out the exhaust? All of those can be signs of BHG.
Was running full of oil with just the front bank valve cover off for just a few seconds. The knocking is coming from the #4 cylinder (valve region ).
True on the gas cap...unless my gas tank filled with rain water, not likely.
Head gaskets are new with heads re-surfaced .005in. Block is fine. Compression was fine after I installed the head gaskets...#4 cyl. is now 130lbs, #5 and #6 are both 160lbs. Did not do a valve job yet, nor have I done anything to the lower-end YET.
No fluids leaking whatsoever...running 10w30 Mobil One synthetic for high-milers and proper coolant ratio with no over heating issues. The Camry has 222K and I'm the third owner. Thanks for responding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by supradude123
Why were you running the engine without valve covers on, did you have oil in it?
Taking the gas cap off does nothing to your fuel pressure going to the engine, just to let you know.
If your head gasket blew after you did it for whatever reason (bad head to block surface, reuse old gasket, etc) and your coolant got in your oil, and you kept running it, = spun bearing. Your engine will lose a TON of power if you have a spun bearing, trust me I know first hand it also resonates through the motor so it sounds like it's coming from the top end. If it sort of sounds like a clicking when you rev it at all, that is a spun bearing. If you keep driving it like that you'll permanently ruin the crank, so be careful.
Is your coolant bottle low (or overflowing), oil milky or possibly white smoke out the exhaust? All of those can be signs of BHG.
Last edited by scotto-; 03-06-2010 at 05:26 PM.
Reason: poor spelling
3 things, did you reuse your old head bolts, what torque spec, and did you retorque them after 5 or so heat cycles? If you didn't retorque them - they can loosen up, stretch, or both and can let the head lift enough that if you used bad gas, that pings or detonates enough you will blow your head gasket. Did you use metal gaskets or composite, and what brand?
If the #4 compression was good originally, and after 500 miles dropped 30#, I doubt the rings could go bad that fast, and same with the valves - unless you havent readjusted the lash or something. The reason I think all that is because even if you have valves that don't seal completely (ie valve float at high rpm, with Supras at least) you won't lose that much power, just some. I had a '90 7mgte Supra, that got a spun bearing and once that happened, that spun bearing alone made it run so bad it wouldn't get past 60 in any gear.
My theory is BHG, and spun bearing. If you want to drop your oil pan (which isn't that hard, I've done it on my Avalon and just resealed with a cork gasket) - you can check for a spun bearing. You will be able to press up on the rod cap and hear it click. If that's the case, you'll probably have to pull the entire crank and get that journal polished, and sized for the right bearings (Toyota sells like 5 different bearing sizes depending on the numbers on your crank and individual rods)
And actually, it's possible to just have a messed up bearing if coolant got mixed in with the oil and passed through that bearing, without it being spun but some of the same things will happen, like power loss and clicking.
Anyway I could be completely wrong so before you go to all the trouble look into simpler things, possibly readjusting the valves for that cylinder. Good luck!
Thanks for the input supradude, every little bit helps! And yes, I did re-use the head bolts as is not recommended but I'm quite sure they are fine (perhaps a bit stretched) and torqued them to specs per sticker on valve cover and shop manual, iirc something like 25# then 90deg. and another 90deg. This engine has never displayed pre-detonation or pinging since I've owned it. I'm 100% positive the new composite Felpro head gaskets are a-ok. As for a spun bearing, it's certainly possible. Maybe a bent or dropped valve or even a bent con-rod, broken tappet or shim, possibly the oil pump went South...I truly don't know just yet. The rain has blown the day for further wrench turning this weekend...probably won't know till the sun shines again, I'll let you know when it does. Thanks again, scotto-
Quote:
Originally Posted by supradude123
Thats all pretty good.
3 things, did you reuse your old head bolts, what torque spec, and did you retorque them after 5 or so heat cycles? If you didn't retorque them - they can loosen up, stretch, or both and can let the head lift enough that if you used bad gas, that pings or detonates enough you will blow your head gasket. Did you use metal gaskets or composite, and what brand?
If the #4 compression was good originally, and after 500 miles dropped 30#, I doubt the rings could go bad that fast, and same with the valves - unless you havent readjusted the lash or something. The reason I think all that is because even if you have valves that don't seal completely (ie valve float at high rpm, with Supras at least) you won't lose that much power, just some. I had a '90 7mgte Supra, that got a spun bearing and once that happened, that spun bearing alone made it run so bad it wouldn't get past 60 in any gear.
My theory is BHG, and spun bearing. If you want to drop your oil pan (which isn't that hard, I've done it on my Avalon and just resealed with a cork gasket) - you can check for a spun bearing. You will be able to press up on the rod cap and hear it click. If that's the case, you'll probably have to pull the entire crank and get that journal polished, and sized for the right bearings (Toyota sells like 5 different bearing sizes depending on the numbers on your crank and individual rods)
And actually, it's possible to just have a messed up bearing if coolant got mixed in with the oil and passed through that bearing, without it being spun but some of the same things will happen, like power loss and clicking.
Anyway I could be completely wrong so before you go to all the trouble look into simpler things, possibly readjusting the valves for that cylinder. Good luck!
Scotto,
When you cleaned the block after yanking the head(s), did any of the old gasket make its way into the block? Man it sounds like the pump got starved. Why after 500 miles?
Any oil changes in that 500 to check things out?
It sounds like you spun a bearing.
YANK the OIL FILTER and cut it open. You'll see material in there if a bearing let go.
Get a clean pan and drop the oil. Pull the catch pan and inspect everything - well unless the filter was totally clean. A magnet oil picks up iron like material. Bearings are lead babbot, copper, and other non-ferris materials. You need to filter them through or drain the majority of the oil off the top. Also, any white foamy gu in the fill cap or oil drained. Could be water caused all this.
Remember, Valve train noises are 1/2 the speed of the crank. Is the noise crank speed or valve speed?
Another test for bearing is this. Follow to the letter or you waste your ECU.
Pull the No 4 (or suspect plug wire) insert a good spark plug into the coil pack/wire and ground the spark plug to the block in a way that it can't disconnect. Start the engine (with oil/not dry) does this change your knock sound?
Good Luck, let us know.
__________________
95 Cam, V6 1MZ, Auto A541E, LE >245,000 miles!
The Following User Says Thank You to 73sport For This Useful Post:
Many thanks for this sound advice, too be honest, my next move was going to be pulling the plug on the #4 cyl. to see if the knock changed or disappeared. Some gasket material did get into the block but we pretty thoroughly blew things out with compressed air. I probably should have flush the block out and pulled the pan, but didn't go that extra pita mile. I did put a strong magnet on the oil filter itself, but as you said alot of those metals are non-ferrous. Was gonna dump the oil just at the 500mi. mark but fell just short so it seems. I will closely inspect the oil contents when I do as you suggested. Thanks again bro, I'll keep you posted as things develop.
side note: I am also replacing the head gasket on my girlfriends '95 Nissan Altima at the moment...and I thought the Camry was a PITA, not even close and the Altima is only a four banger!!! cheers
a quick update...finally got a chance to pull the #4 spark plug and the knock is still there...seems to be at the camshaft speed, rather than the crank. First thing after work tomorrow, i'll be pulling the cam cover on that bank to once again inspect the shims, tappets and such, then cutting open the oil filter for inspection and draining the the pan for further clues...
OK, finally got to tear into this thing today and here's what we found. After pulling off the usual to get to the head removal on the front bank, all went well. Pulled the head and everything looked great, no sign of any knocking so far.
Time to pull the pan...
Well there really isn't anything left at this point that could be causing a knock except a rod or main bearing and you guys nailed it, #4 rod bearing was slappin like a bad thing (and that's a bad thing)!
Now if anyone could shed some light as to what would be the best move in fixing this problem, my dad and I would greatly appreciate it. Some questions of concern...why just this bearing, are/were the others soon to follow? Can just this single bearing be fixed, or unwise and do them all?
Please help if you can, I'm sure confident the knowledge is all here, and thank you all, for all of your responses so far!
Did you find anything in the pump pickup screen? Like head gasket material or something that would have blocked the oil to the pump OR oil getting stuck in the head and not returning to the pump? This is good to know now!
Pull up the toyo manual and read through this around crankshaft and rod bearing clearances ect. . .
Basically it most likely is not an easy fix like tossing in water pump. There are countless factors which change what must be done. Is the crank OK and is the ROD OK? Will the rod hold a new bearing? Why it lost oil pressure to begin with ect. Although pumps seems to be a weak link.
Once you take a look at that use the search function on this site.
Feel free to drop question about anything specific. More than happy to help.
__________________
95 Cam, V6 1MZ, Auto A541E, LE >245,000 miles!
Well, it's too late for me to ask for an oil pressure test. Worn rod bearings can also mean you have low oil pressure. And other main and rod bearings may not be far behind. Looks like you would be better off pulling the block and do a full evaluation. You spent enough time already. The crank may need to be reground and polished.
You can take the block to a competent machine shop for evaluation or just pick up a low miles junkyard motor with 3-month warranty. Number the bearings you pulled so you can determine the type of wear pattern from front to rear of the engine.
I'd recommend starting with an AERA Engine Rebuilder's Assoc member shop in your area, preferably one with racing experience: http://www.aera.org/member.aspx
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotto-
#4 rod bearing was slappin like a bad thing (and that's a bad thing)!
Now if anyone could shed some light as to what would be the best move in fixing this problem, my dad and I would greatly appreciate it. Some questions of concern...why just this bearing, are/were the others soon to follow? Can just this single bearing be fixed, or unwise and do them all?
Please help if you can, I'm sure confident the knowledge is all here, and thank you all, for all of your responses so far!
Man...you guys rock! This is the kind of stuff I need to know and your help is invaluable...truly appreciated. I did find a fair amount of debris stuck inside the pick-up screen, mostly liquid sealant type overflow and bits from composite gasket and sludge covered particles of ?. A fair bit of chunky sludge in the bottom of the oil pan and some fine dust like particles of non-ferrous bearing material in the splash guard above the oil pan.
And yeah JohnGD, unfortunately so...really wish I knew what the oil pump had been putting out but it's too late for that Again I'm ever grateful for all your knowledge and informative info and especially the helpful links. I'll be back at it tomorrow to see what the extent of the damage is so far and hope it's within my realm of fixing this 'ol Camry....until then...Happy St. Patricks to all!
this thread is why tn is so great.
it's fortunate we have diagnosed this, but unfortunate that this problem is probably not worth the effort and money to fix because at this point swapping a motor would be a more safe option due to the compromised nature of this current 3VZ.
Well this is how it stands now...pulled off No. 1 and 4 rod caps and visually inspected the damage to #4 bearing. The rod looks ok and so does the crank...bearing is toast. All looks well with #1 but that's as far as we got today. I'm gonna check the other four and if they are ok (tolerance and wear wise), we'll install a new set of bearings, pray that the mains are ok and button it back up and see what happens. If it runs again, great! If not, oh well, time to quit while I'm ahead, so too speak. No sense in dumping a fortune on a Camry I paid $1300 for two years ago!
Thanks again for all the help and sound advice...this is a great forum!
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Head Gaskets Replaced...now what? Knock-knock?
it also resonates through the motor so it sounds like it's coming from the top end. If it sort of sounds like a clicking when you rev it at all, that is a spun bearing. If you keep driving it like that you'll permanently ruin the crank, so be careful.
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