Transmission/Clutch has given up on me - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums

EEngineer · 03-10-2010, 04:58 AM

many of you may already know this but i've parked my car for a month now.

the reason being that a month ago, i was getting off the highway and at the red light and i was clutching pretty hard and then when the light turns green i can't get my shifter in gear doesn't matter how hard i clutch in.

and when i tried to force it in gear, the car stalled and i started the car in 2nd gear and drove off and then i could shift again....but the same incident repeated itself when i was at another light and then i just decided to get kingston to help me to tow my car home with his CAA membership...which he graciously helped me with to my gratefulness.

it's been a month since then and I was told that it could be the clutch release cylinder that's giving the problem. It was a very probable cause and I ordered one and installed it myself. After proper installation and clutch bleeding, i started the car and it didn't solve the problem.

well, i knew it was a far shot as soon as i heard noises in the transmission when i started the car in gear to move it around. So I'm planning to open up the transmission and find out what's wrong. Hopefully it's just the clutch and nothing else. With this opportunity, I'm planning to install the fidanza flywheel and fix my leaking seals and if possible install two polyurethane engine mounts.

I'm wondering if anyone could give me some ideas what could be wrong with the transmission. Symptom right now is simply not able to push the shifter in any gear possible and if i push harder the engine RPM will dip and when i start the car in gear, the car won't be able to idle in gear because it'll want to stall. If i drive it in first/second gear, the car moves fine...but i hear noises from the tranny. maybe some stuff is loose and moving in the bellhousing.

right now im assuming it's just the clutch gone without any transmission parts broken. how much is a fair price to charge for labour to change the clutch? I was quoted 8 hours from a mechanic and that amounted to around $500. he's planning to drop the subframe and get it out that way. is it possible to slide out the transmission some how without dropping the subframe and save time?

any input would be very much appreciated.r

chronoti · 03-10-2010, 08:49 AM

how does it shift engine off?

dropping the subframe the easiest, too many wires and crap up top

Chris Crash · 03-10-2010, 10:21 AM

On the 4 cylinder, you can pull the 5 speed out the bottom without dropping the subframe. It just takes some convincing. To be honest, you can do the clutch job yourself. Without removing the transmission.

Buy you a clutch. Pull the transmission as far over as you can get, and replace that sonnabitch

73sport · 03-10-2010, 12:41 PM

A couple things come to mind.

Pressure plates do wear out and fail to disengauge. Finger style plates break fingers (rare) and this could be the noise but let me clarify the failure mode:

Normal wear and tear of a clutch disc assembly disolves the clutch fiber material into dust until the disc is so thin the clutch begins to slip.

Others, like yours, have situations where either the throw-out bearing seized and the pressure applied to disengauge the clutch basicly grinds the finger off the diaphram, or the clutch pressure plate diaphram gave up the ghost by means of NOT disengauging when depressed. That is, the diphram fingers flex before thier pivots mechanically retreat the pressure plate from the clutch disc allowing it to stall while the flywheel and pressure plate spin freely. Remeber the goal here is to allow us to stop the transmission input shaft from spinning with the crank and that obviously isn't happening on yours.

Was the slave leaking? Did you replace the master cylinder too? Its a good idea. If the seals were leaking on the slave, the master could have blow by whereby it doesn't move the slave far enough to disengauge. Have someone push the clutch and watch the slave move.

Does the Clutch fork have any free play when the pedal is up?

Give us some detail on the following:
Noise at idle in N.
Noise when the clutch is depressed.
Change in noise between every gear.

IF You can safely support the front end with wheels removed, can you run it through the gears with the wheel off the ground? Please remove front wheeels and support it with real jack stands. Not the jack.

bronzemaxell · 03-10-2010, 01:14 PM

i did the clutch myself
you can change clutch without dropping off tranny on both 4cyl and V6,
and on 4cyl, you can even remove tranny without dropping subframe with the right rotation.

my clutch replacement with a lot of pictures

***Knailgun*** · 03-10-2010, 05:49 PM

sounds to me like the bearings are sheit to me.....

you did the slave cylinder right? you might want to do the master cylinder to be sure as well (they go sometimes, but if it were me I'd do it for prevention's sake)

also, if you are going to do it, I would get a high end lutch (stage 2 or 3 for your build) and then mate it with a fidanza flywheel, yeah I know it is some bucks, but truth be told when is the next time that you want to do this??? Just a though

I am saving a little here and there for a LSD when I swap a new motor in....my only tranny regret, that and Milty never went A to M for the transaction on the clutch.....liar

EEngineer · 03-10-2010, 06:57 PM

a quick update, i just dropped the car off at a mechanic's shop that's literally 10 minute walking distance from my house. I posted a thread on a local forum and got a reply from this shop and the price was staggering good. $275 CND for the labour on the clutch change. I can not beat that because first of all I don't have a garage and i don't have that many tool to work with and lastly my driveway isn't even flat....it's a good 20 degree incline. also the weather is still pretty chilly so $275 was a deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 73sport

A couple things come to mind.

Pressure plates do wear out and fail to disengauge. Finger style plates break fingers (rare) and this could be the noise but let me clarify the failure mode:

Normal wear and tear of a clutch disc assembly disolves the clutch fiber material into dust until the disc is so thin the clutch begins to slip.

Others, like yours, have situations where either the throw-out bearing seized and the pressure applied to disengauge the clutch basicly grinds the finger off the diaphram, or the clutch pressure plate diaphram gave up the ghost by means of NOT disengauging when depressed. That is, the diphram fingers flex before thier pivots mechanically retreat the pressure plate from the clutch disc allowing it to stall while the flywheel and pressure plate spin freely. Remeber the goal here is to allow us to stop the transmission input shaft from spinning with the crank and that obviously isn't happening on yours.

Was the slave leaking? Did you replace the master cylinder too? Its a good idea. If the seals were leaking on the slave, the master could have blow by whereby it doesn't move the slave far enough to disengauge. Have someone push the clutch and watch the slave move.

Does the Clutch fork have any free play when the pedal is up?

Give us some detail on the following:
Noise at idle in N.
Noise when the clutch is depressed.
Change in noise between every gear.

IF You can safely support the front end with wheels removed, can you run it through the gears with the wheel off the ground? Please remove front wheeels and support it with real jack stands. Not the jack.

thanks a million for this super informative reply. I have come to a conclusion that it's most likely the release bearing, pressure plate that has gone bust.

there's no noise in N, no noise when clutch is depressed. Driviing the car in 1st gear has a lot of noise. 2nd gear not much noise at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronzemaxell

i did the clutch myself
you can change clutch without dropping off tranny on both 4cyl and V6,
and on 4cyl, you can even remove tranny without dropping subframe with the right rotation.

my clutch replacement with a lot of pictures

i read that thread thoroughly...and honestly, I was very very tempted to do this job myself but my working condition is pretty bad. no garage, no flat surface to work on. it's still pretty cold outside. I would have tackled this for sure if I didn't have to worry about something wrong with the actual transmission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Crash

On the 4 cylinder, you can pull the 5 speed out the bottom without dropping the subframe. It just takes some convincing. To be honest, you can do the clutch job yourself. Without removing the transmission.

Buy you a clutch. Pull the transmission as far over as you can get, and replace that sonnabitch

u see, this is why I give mad props to you guys who did their own clutch job...seriously..it takes a lot of patience and balls to do it. I'm too chicken shit at this point and the deal i got on this work was just too cheap to pass. the mechanic is very very knowledgeable and told me exactly what i needed to hear. and $275 is just too good to pass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knailgun

sounds to me like the bearings are sheit to me.....

you did the slave cylinder right? you might want to do the master cylinder to be sure as well (they go sometimes, but if it were me I'd do it for prevention's sake)

also, if you are going to do it, I would get a high end lutch (stage 2 or 3 for your build) and then mate it with a fidanza flywheel, yeah I know it is some bucks, but truth be told when is the next time that you want to do this??? Just a though

I am saving a little here and there for a LSD when I swap a new motor in....my only tranny regret, that and Milty never went A to M for the transaction on the clutch.....liar

I just did the slave cylinder myself and the master cylinder is less than 1 year old. When I bought the parts car, the owner said he replaced it and it cost him an arm and a leg LOL.

With this install, I'm putting in the fidanza flywheel and a brand new exedy stage 1 clutch. I got the two in a package for $400ish...and it was a pretty decent clutch and my turbo build is getting pushed back so it'll do for now.

thanks for all the input..i'll be heading over to the shop in the morning to check out the whole process and hopefully it'll be done in a day.

Chris Crash · 03-10-2010, 10:27 PM

Wow that's a ridiculously good price. I've been quoted near $800 for the same job...but that was with parts too, so that factors in.

But yeah, it's not really that hard to do the clutch. You won't need many tools at all. The hardest part is getting to it.

I'm about to do a second clutch but this time the engine and trans will be out of the car. Just waiting on the engine to get here Friday. Trans rebuild kit also shows up Friday. That will be finished by Monday. And my new stage 1 clutch I just ordered tonight so hopefully it won't be too long before that shows up!

EEngineer · 03-11-2010, 02:40 AM

hopefully I'll get the car up and running tomorrow.
i hope dealers keep flywheel bolts and pressure plate bolts in stock...i don't want to reuse those parts

***Eye8Pussies*** · 03-11-2010, 11:40 AM

keep yours fingers crossed...last time I checked, they said that they had to get them shipped from cali and they didn't have them in toronto....

73sport · 03-11-2010, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EEngineer

there's no noise in N, no noise when clutch is depressed. Driviing the car in 1st gear has a lot of noise. 2nd gear not much noise at all.

FWIW:
That aint Good At all!

No noise in neutral: The input shaft, cluster gears, and gears 1-5 on the mainshaft are in motion but with NO LOAD on the trans and it's quiet. This is good. The output shaft to the final drive and ring gear are stopped.

However, you state that there is noise in gear. This is not good and a clutch will not likely solve all that ails this.
Either the the load imposed on the gear set is making noise OR the Final drive has an issue.

You need to explain this noise in detail and figure it out REAL quick or they'll have it back together and it will still have issues!

You have two problems! The clutch won't disengage and the trans makes noise. These guys can fix the clutch. Between the Master, slave, and clutch disk/diappram, this will be resolved. But the noised does not seem to be diagnosed yet. Yes, no??

How long has it made noise?
Did it really start just as you lost the clutch?

Man I hope they spin it up and rack or test drive it before the trans comes out so they know to look for other things. You/we need details fast!

bronzemaxell · 03-11-2010, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 73sport

FWIW:
That aint Good At all!

No noise in neutral: The input shaft, cluster gears, and gears 1-5 on the mainshaft are in motion but with NO LOAD on the trans and it's quiet. This is good. The output shaft to the final drive and ring gear are stopped.

However, you state that there is noise in gear. This is not good and a clutch will not likely solve all that ails this.
Either the the load imposed on the gear set is making noise OR the Final drive has an issue.

You need to explain this noise in detail and figure it out REAL quick or they'll have it back together and it will still have issues!

You have two problems! The clutch won't disengage and the trans makes noise. These guys can fix the clutch. Between the Master, slave, and clutch disk/diappram, this will be resolved. But the noised does not seem to be diagnosed yet. Yes, no??

How long has it made noise?
Did it really start just as you lost the clutch?

Man I hope they spin it up and rack or test drive it before the trans comes out so they know to look for other things. You/we need details fast!

i have the same experience with noise in gear, not clutch, but tranny was the problem, that was why i ended up swappping the tranny in addition to clutch

EEngineer · 03-11-2010, 09:55 PM

All is well today and my beast is up and running and BETTER THAN EVER!!!!!!!!

so after installing my new slave cylinder, no good.

and today the guy working on my car changed the clutch without dropping the subframe...
as soon as he popped off the pressure plate...here's what he had.

clutch disc went bust and cushion springs were getting scrapped around in the bell housing making the noise.

$275 and a full day of work....i'm very very pleased.

unfortunately the fidanza flywheel was installed with re-used flywheel bolts. However the shop owners said they rarely see failed flywheel bolts and since mine were in very much good condition they took them off carefully and torqued them back on carefully as well.

now the new clutch is light as feather, the shifting is seamless...and best of all. no more dripping gear oil!!!

cody is a happy man tonight!

Chris Crash · 03-11-2010, 10:11 PM

Yikes. That's still better than the clutch I pulled out when I first bought the camry. It was shredded. Literally, there were shreds falling out of the tranny as I pulled it.

It was so bad it wouldn't even go anymore. I got in the parking lot and was trying to park when it stopped grabbing, I revved that shit so hard, a freeze plug exploded. Haha.

No bueno. Maybe that's why my engine exploded....

hmmmm....

EEngineer · 03-11-2010, 10:14 PM

^trust me, I was very very thankful that it was the clutch because i don't think i can wait anymore to have tranny rebuilt.

dad drove the car today and he loved the new clutch pedal feeling and shifting smoothness.

next stop = 2 resonators go in and i'm getting an NA tune on my Greddy Emanage