Starter Mystery (please help if you can!)

[Bob800]

Dear Toyota Nation,

My beloved '97 Camry LE 4-banger may be dying. At 180,000 miles, it's understandable, but I want to squeeze a little life out of her yet. Here's the problem:

* Over the last six months, with growing frequency, the car won't start on the first try - I turn the key to start, lights come on, but no turning over, no clicking, no single click, literally nothing. On average it takes three tries, then it starts right up. It has never not started within ten tries, usually starts on the first three.

* Checked the battery with a voltmeter, looked OK, lights etc. were well powered. I figured it was the starter. Bought a new starter from Kragen, threw it in, and ... now the darn thing just clicks rapidly. No turning over, just clicking. I figured 'aha! the battery must have been low and is now the problem'.

* Tried jump starting the car, and it would turn over a bit but then cut out like it didn't have enough power. Let my other car charge the camry for 30 minutes, came back and tried again, same - could turn over a bit, but lights dimmed excessively.

* Gave up jumping it and tried charging it. Did a few hours at 10 amps, then unhooked the charger and tried, now nothing except clicking, no turning over. Took the voltmeter out again, battery seems OK (12.7 V).

* So now I have a new starter installed and instead of starting every time after a few extra turns of the key, it now rapidly clicks every time (which confirms the ignition switch is fine). When jumping the car, it would turn but not start, after charging the car the battery seems OK but can't get past clicking.

* I took out the new starter and had it tested, it's fine.

* I cleaned the battery terminal connections and the fat power wire connector to the starter motor. I suppose there could be corrosion inside the wire, but the wire seems OK to me. I could be wrong though.

* In summary, the starter motor is definitely good. The battery seems good, but that's with superficial (voltmeter only) testing. When attempting to start the car, the engine won't turn over, and the solenoid rapidly clicks.

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That's the problem, and I would love if you all could help me solve it. I've got a decent set of tools, some free time, and a fair amount of patience. What now?

Thanks for your help!
-Bob

[MickyB]

Test the large fuse that is in the main fuse box under the hood. Also check the lead wire connector, possible short in it. Did you get an aftermarket starter? I did and I noticed that there is some play in the connector. If I just jiggle that main connector, she fires up. I also sparyed some electric cleaner in the connector. I know it's so damn frusterating, so maybe some of these tips may help.

[hill8570]

Next step, swap a known-good battery into the rig -- sometimes a duff battery can keep you from being able to jump a car (just because the float voltage of the original battery is OK, doesn't mean the battery is OK).

If you want to get a bit more technical, you could hang a voltmeter off of the input terminals of the starter and have a buddy try to crank the engine. If you see much of a voltage drop, either the battery's duff or there's a bad connection somewhere along the way.

I'd do the "known good" battery swap first -- easier than breaking out the wiring diagrams and trying to trace things back.

BTW, the wiring diagram is at www.camrystuff.com, Generation 4, about halfway down the page.

[ShawnM]

I would start with checking the main power wire going to the starter. It may look ok on the outside but could be corroded under the insulation. The result of that would be battery voltage at the starter but not enough amperage to turn it over.

[Bob800]

Thanks for the ideas. My first two steps are going to be:

1. The fat power line running from battery to starter motor looks good, but it may be corroded on the inside. I want to check this. From the posts above, I can hook the voltmeter up with negative to car ground, and positive to the actual connection point of the fat power line to the starter. If I do that right now, I get 12.X volts. I want to keep the voltmeter there, then have a partner try and start the car - if the voltage drops too much, there is probably corrosion in the wire. Correct? And how much is 'too much'?

2. If the voltage drop is OK, then I can assume the power line to the starter is OK, and so I will swap the battery with my '09 Accord's battery and try and start it up.


When I get home from work I will give this a try.

Also, I promise to keep updating this thread until I fix the problem. I appreciate the help.

EDIT: Changed my mind, I will put the good battery in first, and check for a voltage drop across the starter wire anyway.

[Bob800]

UPDATE:

I swapped a battery from my accord and the engine started up no problem. Bought a new battery, hooked it up, and again, engine starts up no problem. I guess the voltage test of the old battery (which the old battery passed) was more flawed then I realized.

Now the question is: why did my battery die? Of course it could be a defective battery (it's about 2 years old) but my wife insists it's the third battery in five years. I did a voltage check on the alternator and it seems fine, but I don't have equipment to do an amperage check of the alternator. Maybe I will pull it and bring it in to Kragen for a bench test. Is that worth doing?

What else could be causing these batteries to die? I generally buy the step-up from base so I get the extended warranty.

Any ideas?

Thanks!
-Bob

[hill8570]

Originally Posted by Bob800

UPDATE:

I swapped a battery from my accord and the engine started up no problem. Bought a new battery, hooked it up, and again, engine starts up no problem. I guess the voltage test of the old battery (which the old battery passed) was more flawed then I realized.

For future reference, a voltage test with the headlights on will give a better indication of the state of the battery. Not foolproof, but better.

Originally Posted by Bob800

Now the question is: why did my battery die? Of course it could be a defective battery (it's about 2 years old) but my wife insists it's the third battery in five years. I did a voltage check on the alternator and it seems fine, but I don't have equipment to do an amperage check of the alternator. Maybe I will pull it and bring it in to Kragen for a bench test. Is that worth doing?

What else could be causing these batteries to die? I generally buy the step-up from base so I get the extended warranty.

Any ideas?

Thanks!
-Bob

Lots of things can kill a battery. Too much heat, too much cold, not enough use (if the car sits unused for days or weeks at a time, you'll kill the battery before it's time), excessive vibration (such as lots of driving down rutted roads), plus electrical system problems. One thing that is easy to check is to have a parts store (or the place you bought the battery) do an electrical system test on your rig. Shoot, most of them won't even do a warranty exchange without it.

[hill8570]

Originally Posted by Bob800

UPDATE:

I swapped a battery from my accord and the engine started up no problem. Bought a new battery, hooked it up, and again, engine starts up no problem. I guess the voltage test of the old battery (which the old battery passed) was more flawed then I realized.

For future reference, a voltage test with the headlights on will give a better indication of the state of the battery. Not foolproof, but better.

Originally Posted by Bob800

Now the question is: why did my battery die? Of course it could be a defective battery (it's about 2 years old) but my wife insists it's the third battery in five years. I did a voltage check on the alternator and it seems fine, but I don't have equipment to do an amperage check of the alternator. Maybe I will pull it and bring it in to Kragen for a bench test. Is that worth doing?

What else could be causing these batteries to die? I generally buy the step-up from base so I get the extended warranty.

Any ideas?

Thanks!
-Bob

Lots of things can kill a battery. Too much heat, too much cold, not enough use (if the car sits unused for days or weeks at a time, you'll kill the battery before it's time), excessive vibration (such as lots of driving down rutted roads), plus electrical system problems. One thing that is easy to check is to have a parts store (or the place you bought the battery) do an electrical system test on your rig. Shoot, most of them won't even do a warranty exchange without it.

BTW, what battery brand is it? There are only a few battery manufacturers (and lots of re-branding), but not all are created equal.

[Bob800]

Originally Posted by hill8570

Lots of things can kill a battery. Too much heat, too much cold, not enough use (if the car sits unused for days or weeks at a time, you'll kill the battery before it's time), excessive vibration (such as lots of driving down rutted roads), plus electrical system problems. One thing that is easy to check is to have a parts store (or the place you bought the battery) do an electrical system test on your rig. Shoot, most of them won't even do a warranty exchange without it.

BTW, what battery brand is it? There are only a few battery manufacturers (and lots of re-branding), but not all are created equal.

The car is driven at least five days a week. I live in the Bay Area so it's almost always between 45 and 80 degrees Fahrenheit with little rain and no snow. I almost never drive on bad roads, and the battery is bolted down well. IDK, maybe it's corrosion somewhere, or maybe my alternator is supplying the proper amperage even though the voltage tests were fine. The old batteries were Autozone Duralast (with the longer warranty). The new one is from Kragen, can't recall the brand but it's the one with the longer warranty.

I'd be pretty disappointed if it was the battery. The thing is, the last time something similar happened, all I did was check the battery, seemed low, brought it into Autozone, they charged it, tested it, said it was fine, I threw it back in the Camry and it started up with more problems for the next six months. But the day before it died, everything seemed fine, no lights left on or anything, just drained overnight so it couldn't power the starter motor.

It's a mystery to me.