97 Camry brake job

[Camry 97]

Hi all, I've had some work done on my Camry and I have a few questions.

The shop did brakes for 1997 Camry 6 cyl (98K): new rotors, new calipers and pads.

Parts: $540
Labor: $230
Discount: -$70
Total cost: $700

I drove the car home and experienced a few hairy situations in traffic. The brake pedal felt very firm, better than the old 'spongy' pedal, but it seemed like the car took longer to stop. It felt like stepping on the pedal only slowed the vehicle down, and it took several extra seconds for brakes to actually start stopping. Very slow response, like brakes had no 'bite', no power. I had to push the pedal very hard to bring my vehicle to a complete stop.

Next day I called the shop and told the owner about it. He was not happy but told me to bring it back. Their tech took the car for drive, came back and said that he thinks it's fine, brakes work, ABS works and he does not think there is anything wrong with it. I said I didn't think it was very safe to drive the car. The owner offered to leave the car there so they can look at it, or drive it for a few days to see if it gets better. I left it there.

I drove it home tonight. The pedal does not feel as firm, it's between the old 'spongy' and new 'woody' one but brakes start stopping faster then before. It still does not feel like my new brakes I got in 2004, I really liked what the shop (different one) did back then. Sharp, quick, stopped on the spot, very nice .

What would be the reason for slow responsiveness? What could be wrong? I was going to have them do tune up in summer, but I am little discouraged with this experience.

[JohnGD]

What brand of brake pads did they put on there? Their no name special?

For typical driving I'd use Akebono ProAct ceramic. For performance driving a matching set of Hawk Performance front and rear if available. Otherwise Akebono Street Performance.

If they bled the system then all should be well. New rotors shouldn't give you problems, even the $15 Raybestos service grade. Pads -- maybe you got "organic" material. See if they're willing to put on Toyota pads, just to rule out the pads. You may have to add a few bucks.

Given your dissatisfaction, use another shop -- the one you were happy with the previous time.

[Camry 97]

Thanks for your response, John.

I would use the other shop but they went out of business.

My invoice only lists 'front brake pad' and the price; there is no other info.

[Stillrunning]

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-p...brake-pads.htm

[#2!]

One or both of the new calipers might have been slightly stuck and got freed up before you had the mechanic do the test drive.

Do they claim to have test drove it right after the job was completed? Because really for them to do extensive brake repair like that and then not take it for a spin is very reckless.

You might just need to have the system bled to make it work properly. If you haven't gotten a full brake fluid flush yet then do that.

[Camry 97]

Yes, they took it for a drive after they put in new parts. When I complained, their tech took it out for a second drive.

[ChiefRider]

Pad and rotor materials make all the difference. Some hi-perf, and dustless pads require a lot more pressure to stop.

[JohnGD]

Besides pad material, when you lightly step on the pedal do you feel the brakes start engaging?

Also does the pedal need to be pressed further down? I don't mean harder, but longer pedal travel?

Do you have ABS?

Maybe you can get the brand of pads and caliper they used. Why were the calipers replaced?

Originally Posted by Camry 97

Yes, they took it for a drive after they fixed brakes.

[Chris Crash]

Just sayin, that's a lot of money to spend on a brake job.

[Camry 97]

Originally Posted by JohnGD

Besides pad material, when you lightly step on the pedal do you feel the brakes start engaging?

No.

Originally Posted by JohnGD

Also does the pedal need to be pressed further down? I don't mean harder, but longer pedal travel?

After I complained, their tech did something and the pedal now needs to be pushed further down. It's somewhere between the old brakes (very long pedal travel) and new brakes (super short pedal travel).

The distance was not really bothering me; I can get used to the pedal traveling a little instead of being pushed all the way down. It's just that the amount of strength needed to actually notice some stopping action is so much different then before. Now I have to really ram the pedal down hard when I want my car to stop, and even with this hard jumping on the pedal, the braking is not as quick as it used to be.

Originally Posted by JohnGD

Do you have ABS?

Yes.

Originally Posted by JohnGD

Maybe you can get the brand of pads and caliper they used. Why were the calipers replaced?

The brakes were squeeking for quite a while and I asked the shop to look at it. They said that 'everything is too far gone and needs to be replaced'. Regarding the brand of pad and caliper, I can call and ask about it. The owner was rather offended when I brought the car back and told me repeatedly that they use parts of the best quality so I don't know how much cooperation I will get.

[JohnGD]

Do you have drums in the rear?

The reason I was asking about pedal travel and pedal force is trying to help narrow down the problem areas, for example, to air in the system or friction material.

So if you were to use little/moderate force and needing little travel distance of the pedal to feel brake action (even a little), then I'd point more toward friction material. But if you were to need a lot of pedal travel then you may have air in the system or mis-adjusted brakes (or excessive pad-rotor/shoe-drum clearance).

Now if you were to rapidly pump the pedal with the engine running, does the pedal height increase? If so you likely have air in the system. This can easily happen if they let the brake line drain out in an ABS equipped car. Air can get into the secondary pressure relieving circuits of the ABS module. And you'll need to tickle the solenoids to get them out. I rigged an actuator to do that on older, simpler 2-state solenoid systems.

Of course, I'm guessing at various possible causes from the other end of the network cable.

Originally Posted by Camry 97

No.
After I complained, their tech did something and the pedal now needs to be pushed further down. It's somewhere between the old brakes (very long pedal travel) and new brakes (super short pedal travel).

The distance was not really bothering me; I can get used to the pedal traveling a little instead of being pushed all the way down. It's just that the amount of strength needed to actually notice some stopping action is so much different then before. Now I have to really ram the pedal down hard when I want my car to stop, and even with this hard jumping on the pedal, the braking is not as quick as it used to be.

[JohnGD]

Ok, then I wouldn't bother calling them. I don't want to cause you more trouble with the shop.

When they say something like that it's like a warning sign. Brake pads have wear indicators that cause noises when pads are worn down to the limit. Of course there are other causes like embedded dirt, etc. I kinda doubt their integrity. But that's just my feeling.

Now, it's not clear to me the calipers need to be replaced. You may simply need new brake pads or even rotors if those were damaged. But I wasn't there to look at your brakes. Therefore, they may in fact be correct.

IMO, it might be better to ask for a reference to a competent brake shop and just bite the bullet before this shop really screwed up your brake system. There are places offering free brake inspections, or you may have friends who are mechanically inclined who can help. I wish I could do more over the network cable. Maybe others can chime in.

Originally Posted by Camry 97

The brakes were squeeking for quite a while and I asked the shop to look at it. They said that 'everything is too far gone and needs to be replaced'. Regarding the brand of pad and caliper, I can call and ask about it. The owner was rather offended when I brought the car back and told me repeatedly that they use parts of the best quality so I don't know how much cooperation I will get.

[fenixus]

Camry 97, you can safely listen to JohnGD. he helped me a lot in solving my (similar to yours) trouble with my camry solara's mushy brakes (long travel involved).

first of all i can confirm that Hawk HPS (street performance or something) pads are really great! i would say much better than my 2 former sets (last one was Wagner Thermoquiet that i got from Firestone, it sucked BTW).

second important thing to do is to bleed the brakes even for piece of mind. i know your shop had to do it probably, but hey it's easy, good brake fluid is cheap (e.g. Valvoline DOT3&4 or ATE). wouldn't hurt if you do it again with better high end fluid. it improved my brakes really. did it last summer, thinking of doing it again very soon after warm weather settles here.

third thing which probably doesn't apply to you, but i will mention it anyways - make sure you have no engine vacuum trouble at idle (at full stop). i had and it was downgrading the brake booster efficiency making the brake pedal to travel further when fully stopping, e.g. at stop signs or lights.

i didn't do the rotors and calipers though - old rotors seemed not bad to me still and they are original at 71k miles. with calipers I only replaced the guide bolts/pins (used cheap duralast and brakeware parts from local autozone) and greased them well with Permatex (had uneven pad wear trouble before too).

hope it helps you as those steps helped me very well. good luck!

edit:
sorry forgot to mention, you may need to adjust rear brake drums as well. i had that too, they were almost not catching when using gently the parking brake (5-8 clicks). that improved car's stopping power as well.

[JohnGD]

If you have drums in the rear and pedal distance changes, then they may have adjusted the star wheel in the self adjuster mechanism. That's easily solved.

If you have discs in the rear and pedal distance changes, then the shop may have adjusted the brake booster push rod. Then I really have to shake my head in disapproval.

Originally Posted by Camry 97

After I complained, their tech did something and the pedal now needs to be pushed further down. It's somewhere between the old brakes (very long pedal travel) and new brakes (super short pedal travel).

[JohnGD]

Well many thanks Fenixus . Your taking charge to maintain your cars can serve as a great inspiration to owners like Camry97. In addition to saving money, more importantly, it's about a job done right. There are many knowledgeable TN members here, and I'm just trying the best I can to help.

Originally Posted by fenixus

Camry 97, you can safely listen to JohnGD. he helped me a lot in solving my (similar to yours) trouble with my camry solara's mushy brakes (long travel involved).

first of all i can confirm that Hawk HPS (street performance or something) pads are really great! i would say much better than my 2 former sets (last one was Wagner Thermoquiet that i got from Firestone, it sucked BTW).

second important thing to do is to bleed the brakes even for piece of mind. i know your shop had to do it probably, but hey it's easy, good brake fluid is cheap (e.g. Valvoline DOT3&4 or ATE). wouldn't hurt if you do it again with better high end fluid. it improved my brakes really. did it last summer, thinking of doing it again very soon after warm weather settles here.

third thing which probably doesn't apply to you, but i will mention it anyways - make sure you have no engine vacuum trouble at idle (at full stop). i had and it was downgrading the brake booster efficiency making the brake pedal to travel further when fully stopping, e.g. at stop signs or lights.

i didn't do the rotors and calipers though - old rotors seemed not bad to me still and they are original at 71k miles. with calipers I only replaced the guide bolts/pins (used cheap duralast and brakeware parts from local autozone) and greased them well with Permatex (had uneven pad wear trouble before too).

hope it helps you as those steps helped me very well. good luck!

edit:
sorry forgot to mention, you may need to adjust rear brake drums as well. i had that too, they were almost not catching when using gently the parking brake (5-8 clicks). that improved car's stopping power as well.