Oil pump and timing belt question - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums

ldanny · 03-22-2010, 09:29 PM

Im about to tackle the timing belt change via the DIY post. Just had a few quick questions.

1. In Haynes it says to set to TDC first, but in the post it didn't. So can I get away with not setting it to TDC first? What are the pitfalls?

2. Before I remove the oil pump, do I need to drain the oil first?

Thanks for the help. (96 I4)

93celicaconv · 03-22-2010, 09:43 PM

It really depends upon your engine. The standard practice is to establish TDC before beginning to avoid valve contact with pistons on interference engines. If you don't know what engine you have, set TDC first. And why not, even if you know you have a non-interference engine. It's a good thing to get in the practice of doing.

Why the question? It is extremely easy to rotate the crankshaft and find TDC based on crankshaft & camshaft positions.

Regarding question 2, no. Your oil pump is above your oil level in the oil pan.

ldanny · 03-22-2010, 09:59 PM

Thanks for the reply..

It seems like I just have to match the marks on the camshaft and the crankshaft to find the TDC, is that correct? Haynes instructions are to crank the engine with the key and few other steps that seem tedious.

thanks again, wish me luck..

***JohnGD*** · 03-22-2010, 10:56 PM

I don't know why Haynes still uses that method. You simply line up the marks in the cam and crank pulleys and you are #1 TDC.

You can use whatever OEM or aftermarket parts but they should include, in a complete job, the following (not incl. cooling system stuff):

(older list for 3/5SFE, www.rockauto.com prices)
GATES TCK199 (kit of timing belt with two pulleys and instruction)
$84.79
GATES Part # K030295 PS belt $4.32
GATES Part # K050435 Alt/AC $12.12
FEL-PRO TCS45641 Cam seal $4.11
FEL-PRO TCS45920 Crank seal $6.04
BCA Part # 221820 Oil pump seal $2.71
AISIN (Toyota #16110-79185) water pump $58.79
FEL-PRO VS50304R valve cover gasket set $13.94

Plus the large oil pump o-ring if you remove the pump.
NGK Iridium-IX plugs.
etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by ldanny

Thanks for the reply..

It seems like I just have to match the marks on the camshaft and the crankshaft to find the TDC, is that correct? Haynes instructions are to crank the engine with the key and few other steps that seem tedious.

thanks again, wish me luck..

primo382 · 03-23-2010, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnGD

I don't know why Haynes still uses that method. You simply line up the marks in the cam and crank pulleys and you are #1 TDC.

You can use whatever OEM or aftermarket parts but they should include, in a complete job, the following (not incl. cooling system stuff):

(older list for 3/5SFE, www.rockauto.com prices)
GATES TCK199 (kit of timing belt with two pulleys and instruction)
$84.79
GATES Part # K030295 PS belt $4.32
GATES Part # K050435 Alt/AC $12.12
FEL-PRO TCS45641 Cam seal $4.11
FEL-PRO TCS45920 Crank seal $6.04
BCA Part # 221820 Oil pump seal $2.71
AISIN (Toyota #16110-79185) water pump $58.79
FEL-PRO VS50304R valve cover gasket set $13.94

Plus the large oil pump o-ring if you remove the pump.
NGK Iridium-IX plugs.
etc

Continental/ContiTech makes a complete timing belt kit includingboth idlers, a belt, and a new water pump and gasket. $118

Fel-Pro makes a kit that comes with crank seal, oil pump drive rotor seal, oil pump drive/driven rotor housing o-ring, and the entire oil pump to block assembly gasket. $8

Fel-Pro cam seal $6

All from Advance Auto Parts for under $140 including tax.

Toyota dealership for the oil pump drive and driven rotor (gear) set. Inspect yours for a groove where the oil seal rides on the shaft. If it is grooved, spend the $37 for a new set. If you don't, chances are it will continue/begin to leak again from the oil pump shaft seal.

$180 out the door... great price, good parts, no more oil leaks!

ldanny · 03-24-2010, 12:52 AM

thanks for all the pricing..but i ordered the stuff last week...

I spent all day trying to get the motor mount bolts off.. I would like to kick the guy in the balls that thought it would be a good idea to have the bolts in such a tight area.

tomorrow i have to get the crankshaft bolt off, but i dont have the holder tool.. any suggestions? I heard I can do the starter bump but do i need to reconnect the alternator and the ground plugs?

93celicaconv · 03-24-2010, 07:33 AM

There is a risk using your starter to do this - that risk is breaking teeth, especially on the flywheel.

Do you have an air compressor? Best to use an impact wrench.

I made up a custom tool, basically a 1" thick plywood board that is about 12" x 12", with two holes used for bolts that get turned into the tapped holes on the crankshaft pulley, and a larger clearance hole in the middle to provide room to get a socket on the crankshaft bolt. The board bumps up against something solid to prevent the crankshaft from turning while you break loose the crankshaft bolt.

But an air compressor and impact wrench would be far better, if you have this or can get it.

ldanny · 03-24-2010, 01:51 PM

I looked at the belt and it looks in good condition, my mom then tells me that she "thinks" it was changed at 63K miles but doesn't remember when. There are white marks on the camshaft gear, so that makes me thing it was changed. Should I go ahead and try to replace it to should I just wait? But I spent the money on all of the stuff, would there be an issues if i stored the stuff and not use them yet?

that darn crankshaft bolt is so hard to get off.. thats the only reason I am thinking twice.

93celicaconv · 03-24-2010, 03:10 PM

I know the 5S-FE timing belt change interval (recommended) is every 60,000 miles. So if you have over 120,000 miles on the engine now, it is recommended to change it. Your threads didn't say how many miles you have on the engine now, from what I could see.

But if you are comfortable with your visual inspection (and you know what to look for in regards to timing belt health), and you know it is is good shape, you could get by with it for awhile, maybe. It's a game of risk, and how much one is willing to take.

Chris Crash · 03-24-2010, 03:12 PM

To get the bolt off, I used a 1/2" ratchet and hit it with a slegehammer. Works like a charm every time!

I would go ahead and do the change. It's pretty easy to align it.

AlmightyCamry777 · 03-24-2010, 04:12 PM

Yes you really SHOULD put it at tdc first!!!! Remember that timing belt is not like a chain, there is some slack that is designed in to the belt. The slack in the belt needs to be in exactly the right place. The only way to make sure of that is to put it at TDC first. To do otherwise you risk being one or two teeth off on the belt and that will make it run WRONG - do you really want to do it all over again?When i changed mine i had an electric impact wrench and it just wasnt powerful enough - i used the starter bump method. I work in a shop with lots of mechanics and they're the ones that told me, they do it this same way on their own cars. The old starter bump method has not hurt any starter or engine that i've ever heard of.

Sounds to me like it is time to change your timing belt, if the owner can't remember when they had it done thats a pretty good sign right there.

ldanny · 03-24-2010, 11:39 PM

The car has about 83k miles, so I think I will wait till the weekend or later down the road. I replaced the drive belts and the valve cover gasket (source of the oil leak). I just hope I put enough RTV sealant.

The bolt, I also tried the electric impact... bolt didn't even move. I think I have to fab a tool to hold the camshaft. I was going to try the bump method but it seems risky. Can I do it with the alternator ungrounded?

I put everything back together for now, the top layer of skin on my hands are all scrapped off... the darn motor mount bolts. i still don't understand why they would have them in such a tight area.

93celicaconv · 03-25-2010, 07:41 AM

I would not rely on holding the camshaft to break loose a crankshaft bolt. The belt will never hold. Just think how small the timing belt pulley is on the crankshaft, and you think you can get enough force from the belt to overcome the torque you need to break loose the crankshaft bolt? It won't work. And after trying, you will have a damaged timing belt (which I suppose is OK, since you intended to change it anyway).

Sounds like there is enough experience in the group to use the starter bump method with success, I've also heard of people using a strap wrench across the crankshaft pulley (just need to be careful you don't damage the belt grooves in this process, and hope the rubber between the pulley and the hub (for harmonic balancing) doesn't break. If you know someone that has an air compressor and an air impact wrench, that would be the most effective. Otherwise, you can check to see if they sell SST's which bolt onto the crankshaft pulley hub and provides clearance to the bolt so you can hold it with that.