94 Camry CEL 12+31

[mikkey9289]

I have a 94 camry with the 5s in it. i was driving down the road and the car just sputtered out and died. Has spark, fuel, T-belt is intact. just replaced the Ign Coil a couple days ago after the car died and had a no spark. old coil was cracked. Car was running great until it sputtered out.

thanks,
mike

[Stillrunning]

Originally Posted by mikkey9289

Has spark, fuel, T-belt is intact.

Belt could have skipped a notch or two. Checked timing, compression? How do you know you've got fuel?

[mikkey9289]

I know there is fuel to the rail, and while i dont have a pressure tester, it made a good spray when i cracked the bolt loose. i would also like to assume that it has fuel based on the fact that after it died i did manage to get it to start for a few seconds. it ran really rough and died out the second i touched the throttle. what do the codes 12 and 31 mean on this car? as far as checking the timing are u referring to the cam timing that the timing belt controls or the ignition timing. I played with the ignition timing a bit with no success, and i really have a hard time seeing how ignition timing can go out on these cars considering its either 180 out or right with the exception of the few degrees you can adjust with the mounting bolts.

thanks
mike

[hill8570]

Originally Posted by mikkey9289

I know there is fuel to the rail, and while i dont have a pressure tester, it made a good spray when i cracked the bolt loose. i would also like to assume that it has fuel based on the fact that after it died i did manage to get it to start for a few seconds. it ran really rough and died out the second i touched the throttle. what do the codes 12 and 31 mean on this car? as far as checking the timing are u referring to the cam timing that the timing belt controls or the ignition timing. I played with the ignition timing a bit with no success, and i really have a hard time seeing how ignition timing can go out on these cars considering its either 180 out or right with the exception of the few degrees you can adjust with the mounting bolts.

thanks
mike

Well, since you're in Texas, I'll assume you don't have a California spec car (not always the correct assumption, 'tho).

DTC 12

No N E signal to ECM with 2 sec. or more after cranking OR
No G signal to ECM for 3 sec. or more with engine speed between 600 rpm and 4,000 rpm

DTC 31

Open or short in manifold absolute pressure sensor circuit for 0.5 sec. or more

That's kind of a strange combo to be getting. The car should still run (but badly) with a bad MAP sensor. Let's ignore that for now.

OTOH, the NE and G signals come from pickup coils in the distributor, and the ECM won't fire the igniter without seeing them.

Have you confirmed that the distributor rotor is spinning while trying to crank the car? My first guess is that your timing belt broke -- if the rotor isn't spinning while cranking, that's positive id on a torched timing belt.

[mikkey9289]

I know that the T-Belt is still intact. I am not positive that it did not skip a tooth. I am curious to know if it is possible that my oreillys coil is already dying and is strong enough to make a spark on a spark tester but not strong enough to run the engine. I do have spark on the tester. I also wanted to know if anyone has ever just lost compression and had there car die like that. I ask because I do not have a compression tester and i have a hard time thinking that possible. The car has the proper amount of oil so that kind of wear seems unlikely. I also want to know where the MAP sensor is on the car and what can cause my MAP sensor code so i can properly inspect it.

thanks
mike

[mikkey9289]

My dumb ass just realized that i got a code 31 because i unplugged the map sensor and tried to start it, thinking if it was bad the computer would run in limp mode if i unplugged it. Car is not California Spec. Is there anything i could have done to cause the code 12 while i was poking around under the hood?

[hill8570]

Originally Posted by mikkey9289

My dumb ass just realized that i got a code 31 because i unplugged the map sensor and tried to start it, thinking if it was bad the computer would run in limp mode if i unplugged it. Car is not California Spec. Is there anything i could have done to cause the code 12 while i was poking around under the hood?

OK, glad you got that figured out...a 12 and a 31 together was really weirding me out.

As far as spark goes, I usually don't use a spark tester unless it's a gap tester -- I don't like those little light things. IMHO, an old spark plug grounded to the motor is the best indicator -- if the spark is big and blue you're getting a good spark. Wimpy little yellow sparks are bad.

As far as DTC 12 goes, the pickup coils for the G and NE signals are inside the distributor. They generally don't fail, but there's an off chance you knocked something loose when you were replacing the coil. Not super likely, but it's something to keep in mind. I think more likely is the connector on the distributor. IIRC, on the '94 the G and NE signals come out on a connector on the bottom of the distributor (there is a second connector on the right of the dizzy, but that goes over to the igniter). Make sure that guy is "clicked" into place good.

Oh, and to keep harping on the subject, but you did make sure the rotor was spinning when you were cranking, right? I'm not sure how you "know" the timing belt is intact, but a spinning rotor is the true go / no go.

[mikkey9289]

I know that the timing belt is intact because i saw the rotor spinning and because i removed the upper timing cover and checked. I have a descent mechanical back ground and I understand vehicle and how they operate. I am looking for input on if someone might have come across a similar situation. The next step is pulling the old plugs, inspecting them, then grounding them on the block to see what kind of spark i really am getting. The tester may indicate spark but it never tell you how good of spark. If i am getting weak spark i suppose i will replace the coil again, upgrade to the BWD, that is unless i get some terrible feedback about it, I have always had good luck with there products, and they are not terribly expensive. I will also go ahead and do new RFI Condenser, plugs, wires, cap and rotor. of course none of that will be house brand or Bosch. Do the NGK V-power plugs fare well in these engines? or should i just go get the Denso's from the Toyota dealership?

[mikkey9289]

I am really lost now. I checked the cam timing and it was right on the money. I checked spark via grounding the plugs and all spark a nice pretty blue. The plugs all had a decent amount of carbon deposit on them, and a couple smelled of raw fuel. Can someone please explain if it is at all possible for the car to go out of timing under the circumstances i have described. the car being out of time is the only thing that i can think of at this point. and just to make certain that i checked the cam timing correctly, the crank pulley was at the 0 mark and the cam pulley hole was lined up with the notch in the head. if that is incorrect, then please let me know. i am at a complete loss for how a car that seems to getting good spark, fuel, and from what i can tell proper ignition timing can be completely dead.

[zinda]

did you every figure out your cel code 12?

[mikkey9289]

Thanks to everyone who gave me advice. After going over everything, I re assembled the car and decided to pull the Distributor cap one last time to see if i could find anything. After a close inspection i found that the Pickup for the stator had cracked open and the wire was unwinding onto the main Distributor shaft. After replacing the distributor the car now runs like a champ.