Do I need a new Torque Converter?

[Barnon]

My Daughter has a 99 Solara 2.2 Automatic. It developed a clunking noise at low rpm that worsened and then developed transmission engagement problems.

I'm in the process of pulling the transmission and when I removed the six bolts from the flywheel to the torque converter, the flywheel was just flopping around. Apparently the eight bolts connecting the flywheel to the crankshaft are loose.

This was a huge job for me, I'm about to remove the lower frame assembly and drop the transmission and was wondering if I should just replace the torque converter or is there a chance that just re-installing everything correctly will solve my problems?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[73sport]

Ouch! Good job for moving forward tho!

OK - you have this going for you, the converter is supported by the crankshaft pilot hole and the main bushing at the front pump of the transmission, both offer lateral support assuming the t/c stayed engaged in in the crankshaft pilot, I'd think the loose bolts should have little impact on the t/c.

But, to answer your question it depends on many things:
Did the loose condition damage anything?

At at bare min, I'd expect you to replace the flex plate and bolts. It must have elongated the holes where the crank bolts clamp the f/p down.

As for the rest of it, was it working OK, is the fluid color good, and what caused the original problem? Please explain, "engagement problems. . . . "

Mechanically, if the mating parts are not torn up by running loose, I'd say you might be OK to use it, but I'd measure the hub, inspect the trans front seal, Make sure you didn't knock the tensioner spring out of the seal, and give everything a good once over.

Take some pictures, and we can get a better idea.

Good luck!

[Barnon]

Fluid color is good. The engagement problems started to occur after the clanking noise got worse. At one point the transmission would not engage in any gear position. Shift cable was OK. I pushed it in the garage and the next day I started it up, and it engaged in all gears after a short delay (still clanking), then I started to tear it down.

I should have it out this weekend and will post findings.

Thanks so much for the advice.

[Barnon]

Got the transmission out over the weekend. Hardest part for me was removing the two screws holding the steering rack to the lower frame assembly. I bought a new Earthquake (supposedly 625 ft/lb) impact wrench that still wouldn't budge them. Had to use a three foot pipe and all my might.

Here are some pictures. Looks like all the bolts were loose holding the drive plate to the crankshaft. you can see the bolts heads were marking the torque converter. I saw no metal shaving or chips. The holes in the drive plate are slightly elongated.

Should I just reinstall everything and see what happens?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[ekopel]

honestly man, since you have it all apart, I would just go pick up a new torque converter. I have had terrible luck with mine, have gone through 2 in 130k miles. They are cheap, and you can't go wrong just getting a new one. They usually go for around 50 bucks at junk yards, and should easily be able to find one on car-part.com. I would be willing to bet it would work just fine, but you are already at the perfect stage to replace a part that is kind of a pain in the a** to get to... My .02

[Chris Crash]

Pro tip:

When you reinstall the flywheel, torque it to 65 ft/lbs. And actually torque it. As you can see, if you don't, bad things happen.

[JohnGD]

I wonder what caused the bolts to come loose. I'd change out the rear main seal while at it, then use a medium strength threadlock on the bolts. I tend not to like using the "permanent' red threadlocker on my shelf. I'd change the front ATF pump seal too.

If you do decide to get a rebuilt converter, check with your nearest Transtar Industries warehouse. You can also get strainers and pan gaskets there too. Were the bolt holes elongated only on the flywheel? That may need to be replaced too. You can always reuse this converter and see how it works. But it may cost you time for the next R&R.

http://www.transtar1.com/locations.asp

Originally Posted by Barnon

Got the transmission out over the weekend. Hardest part for me was removing the two screws holding the steering rack to the lower frame assembly. I bought a new Earthquake (supposedly 625 ft/lb) impact wrench that still wouldn't budge them. Had to use a three foot pipe and all my might.

[Barnon]

Originally Posted by JohnGD

I wonder what caused the bolts to come loose. I'd change out the rear main seal while at it, then use a medium strength threadlock on the bolts. I tend not to like using the "permanent' red threadlocker on my shelf. I'd change the front ATF pump seal too.

If you do decide to get a rebuilt converter, check with your nearest Transtar Industries warehouse. You can also get strainers and pan gaskets there too. Were the bolt holes elongated only on the flywheel? That may need to be replaced too. You can always reuse this converter and see how it works. But it may cost you time for the next R&R.

http://www.transtar1.com/locations.asp

Thx for the advice guys. I am stopping by Transtar Today. They quoted $108 for a converter. Replacing the seals sounds like some good inexpensive maintanance at this time too.

The slightly elongated holes in the flywheel is the only damage I can see.

[73sport]

Replace the flex plate! <period>

Yea, you can do all that other stuff to, but what will it gain you? In the 5 years at AAMCO, we tried various converter rebuilders and its a crap shoot.

OEM materials typcally have better tolerances and material grades than those of the rebuilders, so it really depends opon the qualtiy of work and materials. In this case, CHEAP is not always the best. And skip the notion of USED! YIKES

Lets play this both ways.
* You know a bunch crap hasn't been ran through yours, how many miles are on it, it works, it fits, it has the right stall speed, it doesn't vibrate, shake, do weird stuff . . . ect. But then again you do have this unknown issue whereby the car didn't engauge or move one time. Why? That is what needs answered here.

* OR you roll the dice with a rebuilt converter with new bushings, lockup clutch pack, and sprague cluth. One would think new is better, but I'll tell you they just don't test them as well as the OEM's do and the materials may not be an upgrade or equal quality so IMO you are adding a variable that doesn't really add value. Well unless it played a roll in the strangeness that occured (not moving)?

Anyway, toss some white grease on the hub and lips of the existing seal and shove it back together with a new flex plate & bolts using loctite. Torque to spec.
Why no seal? Again, the OEM quality is good stuff, typically better than that of most National, Federal Mogul parts and IF you miss the depth, ding it, distort, or put it in slightly cocked, too shallow, ect then you get to do this over as most people don't have the right tools to do a nice clean removal and install. I'm not saying you are not capable, but if you're not doing this type of thing daily, the odds are not with you and there is nothing wrong with that seal.

Install T/C: 1st, grease hub and seal!!!
When you install the t/c into the trans there are at least three splines that need to align to fully seat the t/c into the trans. Hold the bell and the pilot nub, and insert it into the trans. While holding the pilot, support it such that the t/c bell is centered in the housing and give it a good spin while pushing in. Sometimes a tight one will require some jiggling, spining, and pushing! Don't be afraid to reverse directions either. When ALL the parts align, you'll feel succesive clunks as the splines engauge. You're doing this so that mating of the engine and trans does not result in damage to the transmission front pump, hub, and splines internal to both parts. When the eng/trans mate to the dowel pins, everything should slide together with no resistance and you should be able to rotate the T/C so align the bolt and pads. If its pinched or stuck, the t/c may not be in all the way and damage will result if you force the bell housing bolts in. Never force the two together with the bolts and always draw them in evenly.


Hope this helps. Cool to see you got it all out nicely and thanks for the pix! Can you snap one of the t/c sealing area where its supported by the trans?

[73sport]

Originally Posted by JohnGD

I wonder what caused the bolts to come loose. I'd change out the rear main seal while at it, then use a medium strength threadlock on the bolts. I tend not to like using the "permanent' red threadlocker on my shelf. I'd change the front ATF pump seal too.

Ditto on the "what caused it?" Did it have a bad vibration prior to this? Clean the holes with brake clean and compressed air if you want the thread lock to work as the holes are full of red rust from the bolts being loose!

Are you shooting for the rear main and source of the engine oil in the bellhousing? It looks slung as if there's enough volume to hit the flex and spray it. Do find the source before putting it all back together. Perhaps a picture of the engine block for further prosecution?

Edit: with flex and backing plate off. . .

[Barnon]

Originally Posted by 73sport

Replace the flex plate! <period>

Can you snap one of the t/c sealing area where its supported by the trans?

Here's a pic of the other side of the torque converter.

[Barnon]

Originally Posted by 73sport

Ditto on the "what caused it?" Did it have a bad vibration prior to this? Clean the holes with brake clean and compressed air if you want the thread lock to work as the holes are full of red rust from the bolts being loose!

Are you shooting for the rear main and source of the engine oil in the bellhousing? It looks slung as if there's enough volume to hit the flex and spray it. Do find the source before putting it all back together. Perhaps a picture of the engine block for further prosecution?

Edit: with flex and backing plate off. . .

I never saw any oil leaking where my Daughter parks in the drivway. The whole story on the car is my brother-in-law bought it at from an aution knowing it had a bad motor. He put a used motor in it supposedly with 60,000 miles. The car odometer showed 101,000. His wife drove it for about 30,000 miles with no problems. The clanking noise developed about 2 weeks after I bought it. Enging runs great, no vibration. Other than someone not taking car of the engine the car seems to be sound.

[73sport]

That helps!

So it could be that the repalcement engine had a damaged flex plate or it was missing and someone replaced it and failed to torque the bolts properly.

This makes WAY more sense than a factory job falling apart.

Is the Hub and sela area of the T/C OK? Do you have ANY explanation for why it didn't move that one day? Anything?

Q? Is it the photo or does the bell in the photo have contact abrassion in the front from rubbing on something? Right around where the red dots are. . .

[Barnon]

Originally Posted by 73sport

That helps!

So it could be that the repalcement engine had a damaged flex plate or it was missing and someone replaced it and failed to torque the bolts properly.

This makes WAY more sense than a factory job falling apart.

Is the Hub and sela area of the T/C OK? Do you have ANY explanation for why it didn't move that one day? Anything?

Q? Is it the photo or does the bell in the photo have contact abrassion in the front from rubbing on something? Right around where the red dots are. . .

The pic of the TC below does seem to have some flat spots. I'm at work right now but I'll have a closer look when I get home at that and the sealing area. As far as not engaging the only explanation I can hope for is that it was due to the TC and flex plate were not held tightly to the crankshaft.

The transmission fluid was nice and pink but I did not check it properly before disassembly. I am by no means skilled or experienced with this stuff. I'm just cheap and hate putting out thousands to a shop when I can struggle thru it for hundreds.

[73sport]

Well, that's wild! wtf????

I'd say it didn't come from that Trans as the Trans shows no sign of contact!

As for your statement about it not moving. Even though the bolts were loose as could be, all they had to do was spin it and I'll say IT was spinning so that mystery reamins just that. A mystery. That converter came from something else unless you see something in real life that we don't in the pictures.

I mean I can't see how that abrassion hurt it any but am curious on the "HOW" part of how did it happen. When did it happen. Where did the red come from and is it time for a beer yet?

Yep! OK we know one thing for certain. . .

EDIT: I just supersized the pump area, it sure looks like it hit their on a couple of bolts and the casting itself. Due to the heat color on the T/C, it could have knocked something loose inside. There are spot welds internal holding the directional veins in place and it would suck to have a failure later. I may have to take my words back and say replace it! Drop the pan and check for anything that doesn't belong there while you're at it.