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Old 04-05-2010, 05:40 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Difficult to drive straight sometimes?

This may be a stupid question. What could cause the car to sway side to side sometimes?

I know wind will do that. I'm sure bad alignment may have those effects too. But sometimes I have difficulty staying straight, while other cars I observe do not that have problem. Are these Camry's prone to swaying in the wind because of design?

I recently got an alignment done. But for some reason I still need to keep the steering wheel slightly to the left to keep straight. Might there be other alignment issues that were not fixed?
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Old 04-05-2010, 06:52 PM   #2 (permalink)
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have you been drinking before you get into the car?


just kidding, but does your car have any body frame damage? because that might be the reason that you are not going straight
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Old 04-05-2010, 09:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
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did the shop give you print out of alignment numbers ? i would check to what numbers they aligned it to.
and yeah any bent pieces of frame cause that too.

may be your tires are worn and car looses some traction with side wind ? probably unreal, just and idea
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Old 04-05-2010, 10:17 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Interesting, I havent experienced this in the '92 or '98 Camry but in my Grandmother's '04 Camry it seems to have this "swaying" problem but I've just attributed it to high winds and a slightly off alingment.
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Old 04-05-2010, 10:19 PM   #5 (permalink)
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No frame damage as far as I know.

5-6 years ago I had to slam into a curb going pretty fast to avoid hitting an asshole that cut me off. The impact was to the left front wheel. When I got the alignment done, they had to do a camber bolt thing for the front left corner (probably because of that old incident). That stupid thing made the alignment cost twice as much.

Also, a year or so ago traveling about 65-70 on a highway after rain, I slammed on my brakes to avoid hitting someone that swerved into my lane. I actually swerved AND hit the brakes, causing my vehicle to spin around. I'm a little foggy about the whole thing as it happened very quickly, but I think my car did a full 360, possibly two times. I don't know what affect that may have had on various components.

Five years ago I also rear-ended a vehicle. That was the only real accident my vehicle has ever had. The impact wasn't too serious. But who knows what may have been affected?

Below are the before and after alignment measurements. My car has never gotten an alignment before this.

I was told they did not have specs for the rear alignment and therefore could not do anything about that rear right corner being slightly off. I was told that was not a big deal though?


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Old 04-05-2010, 10:31 PM   #6 (permalink)
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possibly a bent lower control arm. but if your alignment is done and u won't have any camber wear, going further to solve this problem will be costly.

i think i have a bent one as well...but very very minor ...however my front wheels are positioned off by a finger length i think.....one is sitting a little backwards....lol

oh well...nothing money can't solve...but too bad i have none
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Old 04-05-2010, 11:09 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I might have the same "problem". I believe mine is because the belt is too loose, therefore it will veer off to the right or the left very very gradually. Frankly, I love it loose.
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Old 04-06-2010, 12:05 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Something is probably loose. Haux's got new suspension components in there. Maybe the subframe rubber bushings? Just wondering.
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Old 04-06-2010, 11:22 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdy0003 View Post
I love it loose.
Giggity?


EEngineer, the guy that was doing the alignment did say the control arm may be bent. Is that what you mean by costly? I believe the camber thing they did was supposed to fix that. I mean, not fix the problem that may be a bent control arm, but fix negative effects of it.

JohnGD, every time I look at rubber components that are less commonly replaced... such as those in the lateral control arms for example, they always seem solid. I didn't think about those for the subframe though. Do you think it could be the front subframe? I think there's another one in the rear, and I don't know about anything else...

pgmomni, the steering to the left thing was a lot worse before the alignment. I thought it would have been fixed, but I still have to keep it slightly left. I don't really notice it because I'm used to it, but if I pay attention, it's there. I'm afraid I may have to take it somewhere else to have the alignment looked at. I just need to find a place that will be honest and NOT do unnecessary work just for money. Based on reviews, the first place I went to was supposed to be like that. Also, there's nothing to "let go." I've recently spend four grand on the car overhauling just about everything. Almost every aspect of the suspension is new. Basically, at this point, if the motor or transmission goes, either it's getting fixed or getting a new one.
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Old 04-06-2010, 12:51 PM   #10 (permalink)
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My 97 does the exact same thing. Both of the ones I've owned did it.
The first one had frame damage so I thought it was that, but the second one has never had major damage. I don't know why I can't keep it straight, it's worse on the highway and I just tell myself its the wind and don't worry about it. haha.

One thing I have noticed though, is that when I try to correct the sway, I usually overcorrect and keep swerving back and forth trying to find a median. But if I just hold the wheel firm and straight, I will usually keep it straight.
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Old 04-06-2010, 01:51 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Crash View Post
My 97 does the exact same thing. Both of the ones I've owned did it.
The first one had frame damage so I thought it was that, but the second one has never had major damage. I don't know why I can't keep it straight, it's worse on the highway and I just tell myself its the wind and don't worry about it. haha.

One thing I have noticed though, is that when I try to correct the sway, I usually overcorrect and keep swerving back and forth trying to find a median. But if I just hold the wheel firm and straight, I will usually keep it straight.
Exactly! It feels like it's just wind... but when I notice other cars aren't swaying like I am, I know it's just me.

I always fear a cop is gonna pull me over thinking I'm drunk. I mean... it probably isn't THAT bad, but it feels like it is.

It's not the end of the world kind of deal, just annoying. And something I'm willing to put time and effort into to fix, even if it's costs some money.

A control arm wouldn't be a big deal. But I doubt it's that, because the camber adjustment was supposed to fix it. At least that's what THEY told me.

Let's say the front subframe bushings are bad, for example. What kind of work is involved to replace those? Does everything in the engine bay need to be removed to remove the subframe? Or can each bushing be replaced one at a time without removing it entirely?
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Old 04-06-2010, 01:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haux View Post
Exactly! It feels like it's just wind... but when I notice other cars aren't swaying like I am, I know it's just me.

I always fear a cop is gonna pull me over thinking I'm drunk. I mean... it probably isn't THAT bad, but it feels like it is.

It's not the end of the world kind of deal, just annoying. And something I'm willing to put time and effort into to fix, even if it's costs some money.

A control arm wouldn't be a big deal. But I doubt it's that, because the camber adjustment was supposed to fix it. At least that's what THEY told me.

Let's say the front subframe bushings are bad, for example. What kind of work is involved to replace those? Does everything in the engine bay need to be removed to remove the subframe? Or can each bushing be replaced one at a time without removing it entirely?

I agree completely with the bolded statement.

For the subframe, you can leave everything where it is to replace the bushings. You might want to unbolt the motor mounts and support the engine/trans with jack stands or something so you're not trying to lift the entire engine.
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Old 04-06-2010, 03:23 PM   #13 (permalink)
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LONG w/ Details. . . .
H,
The original numbers say the car should desire going left into traffic (BAD!) and wear the insides of all four tires (front more so) until that alignment.

Here's a snap shot of what some of that means.

Camber:
Camber is the vertical tilt of the tires in and out at the top. In at the top is (-). Out at the top is (+). Camber can make a care pull. Take a dixie cup and place it on the table. Its a tappered cup, place the large opening to torwards your right hand and pretend its the left front. Roll it. It goes left in circles. That's the negative camber pulling the car left. Tire width and wheel offset affects how much a car may want to pull when the two sides are not within a 1/4 to 1/2 degree of each other.

Caster:
The lean for and aft of the hub relative to its axis (strut/ball joint), the inclination created between the relationship of the upper pivot (strut mount) and the lower pivot (lower ball joint). A motorcycle fork has positve caster while a shopping cart wheel has negative caster. Your car with near equal caster implies the angle from the top of the strut to the lower ball joint is the same from side to side which implies there is little setback on the left front. The curb issue didn't push the wheel back or the caster would go down in value towards 0.

The print doesn't list setback so picture this: A perfect "T" has no setback (picture the tires are the ends of the cross (X). Both outer points are 90 degrees from the vertical line. If a car is curbed hard enough, the wheel can bend things back. Most likely to go are the ball joint itself, the lower a-arm, the sub-frame where the a-arm mounts, or the whole sub-frame moves back! This is one way to loose caster. Sometimes the strut shaft bends and as you travel down the road it rotates a little and you have variable toe, caster, and camber.

X============X
--------|
--------|
--------|
--------|
--------|
--------|

You're final numbers with -0.8 camber can result in some inner tire wear at all four corners, but it should drive well into the corners. Ever notice those early Ford Focus's (early 80's). They were built with like +1.5 camber (tires tipped out at the top) front and -1.5 in the rear. The result is a car that pushes into the corners and forces the driver to back out of the gas. Postive camber in the front leads to pushing as the tires scuff easier while the negative in the back grip and hold. The result is simply not comfortable to drive at speed. Yours being nearly matched isn't a bad thing except for tire wear on the insides.

How about torque steer? At cruise with a steady throttle, which way does it go? Under acceleration it goes right, deceleration goes left. A parts wear and rubber softens and the lower control arms move more. This is where the preset Toe in can play a role. Ideal toe in the front is like Zero degrees (less rolling resistance and better tire life). But these are front wheel drives with the steering rack behind the axel. When you stand on the gas the wheels pull the lower A-arm forward and change the toe, creating a "Toe out" condition. This makes them want to dart from side to side but mainly right due to torque. Adding a little toe-in can help mask this, but don't add too much or tire wear becomes a tire wear issue.

Thrust line; We've all driven a car with the steering wheel down on one side while going straight. These cars can have a perfect alignment with zero toe and still have a crooked steering wheel while going straight. To simplify; this is the thrust line and its off on these cars. That is a zero thrust line should equate to the wheels being pointed straight ahead (front or back).

But if we move to the rear of the car and dork up the thrust line there (shift the toe on both rear wheels to the left for example) now we see the car go down the road sideways (crab walk) with the drivers side of the car being seen just as much as the bumper when following it. All these are good signs of cars with damage from something or really bad alignments.

Toe;
For best tire life, zero toe front and rear is good. "Toe-IN" causes wear on the outsides of the tires (assume Zero camber). "Toe-OUT", will cause wear on the inside edges. However you can offset some of this by varying the camber too.

Repairs:
When people drop the subframes on these front wheel drives, what types of things can happen to the alignment?

Lets say the sub-frame its perfectly aligned left and right but shifted straight forward; This increases caster and toe out.

Straight back; decrease caster, reduces toe.

Shift the subframe Forward on the right front and backwards on the left front: LF caster goes (-), RF goes caster (+), toe ??, driving = pulls left as higher caster numbers push the opposite direction. hehe Keep an eye on those tranny guys!

Rule of thumb:
Areas with lots of crowned roads, may have cars set up with less caster on the left than the right to make the car drive straight on crowned roads.

Ever notice luxury car like the M-Benz? Lots of + caster makes them drive nice up on an open highway as caster makes the car want to go straight. A car with Zero caster would be miserable and scary as caster is what makes the steering wheel return to center after completing a corner.

I could blab about this for a while and might just pick up an write that artcle on wheel alignment one day.

As for your car at speed and being unstable; its likely a combination of worn out parts, tires brand and tire pressure. If the rack mounts, tie-rod ends or rack itself have freeplay, the grooves and wind will move you about. Couple that with tires that don't work well for your car and you have your hands full.

Let me just say that I've had some cheap 78 series tires on a car and it drove better with them than a bad set of 50 series tires (different rim of course). Some sidewall designs just don't do well on all cars. Usually it can be masked by getting the tire pressure just right on the front and rear and I seperate the two as typically they are not the same number (psi).

I hope this length of blabage was helpful to someone. . .
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Old 04-06-2010, 04:30 PM   #14 (permalink)
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That's a lot to swallow. =)

With regard to your mention of tire brand... My tires were completely bald a few weeks ago. I have new tires back home, but that doesn't do me any good out here. So I went out and bought four used tires. The fronts are Michelin. The rears I was told were also Michelin but say something else on them... maybe some other Michelin brand? I don't recall what it says. It's quite possible the tires may not be right for my car. They didn't run anything through a computer to check... just went out and grabbed some tires for me. In any case, both pairs match. I figured that would be good enough for now. I always thought that as long as they were the proper size, they should be fine. I guess that's incorrect?

Btw, tie rod ends are OEM and new. The rack and its mounts/bushings are original.

And yes, on acceleration the car does pull to a specific direction. Although, what I am thinking about is from stop. I tend to accelerate hard, and depending on the road condition, it can get pretty wild sometimes.
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Old 04-06-2010, 05:42 PM   #15 (permalink)
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The cards have been dealt so I'd play with the air pressure. Try setting it to glove box recomendations.

Allot of newer tires have higher load capacity and a common mistake is to over inflate based on tire load capacity and not the actual vehicle weight. This is all good as it gives room to play with the pressure without fear of running too low and blowing a tire.

My V6 gets 40psi in the front and 34 to 36 in the rear. It drives good this way, but the 40 up front is a tad noisey but keeps the edges from getting worn off too fast. I'd guess the glove box will say something MUCH lower. Just play with it for a while.

A quick tip: grab a couple of those thin cutting board sheets. Their cheap. Peel the wrapper off, through two atop each other and drive the front wheels on them. The smoother the surface the better. THis will reduce the friction between the tire and earth. Now grab the tire front and back 9-O'clock & 3-O'clock, try to rock it. If you feel movement, find where it comes from. Any loosness can cause the conditon you feel.
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