Rack and pinion... or p.s. pump?

[LittleWhiteBubble]

I recently changed my struts all the way around as my camry is a 92 and had the originals still. After changing them out I took it to be aligned and the shop told me they got it aligned but my rack and pinion is going bad. They said it was the rack and pinion because driving straight it is fine, but after turning left the car wanders left, and after turning right it wanders right, even though the alignment is good. Basically the wheel has a hard time centering.

Their diagnosis made sense to me, and I have also started to notice a little noise coming from what sounds like right behind the steering wheel. It sounds almost like a power steering pump would groan when low, but not nearly as loud. The fluid level does not seem to be going down in the reservoir though, so I've ruled out a leak. That leads me to believe either the valves are messed up in the rack and pinion or the power steering pump is too weak to keep the pressure in the rack.

I'm trying to see if anyone else has had this problem or can tell me whether it is the power steering or the rack. I'd just hate if its just the pump and I change out the entire rack for nothing. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

[LittleWhiteBubble]

One other thing I didn't mention, the wheel still turns just fine, very easy and there are no "hard spots" even at dead left and right.

I found a guy with a wrecked camry that will sell me the full rack and tie rod ends for 150... but I'd need to jump on it in the next few days, so I'm hoping someone can ease my conscience on the problem.

[93celicaconv]

What the mechanic is trying to tell you is that there is slop between your steering column and your tie rods. If you have the engine off, key on, and try to lightly turn the steering wheel, how much does the steering wheel turn from right to left without using hardly any pressure? It should a little, but not much. If it turns a fair amount, this is the slop the mechanic was trying to indicate to you.

Usually the slop comes from tie rods starting to fail, especially on rack & pinion steering systems. But wear in the pinion of the steering rack can cause this too. I would expect the mechanic doing the alignment would have checked the condition of your tie rods and would have advised if they should be replaced due to looseness, but he did not. You might want to check them yourself first to rule them out.

PS: This has nothing to do with the power steering pump or fluid or anything.

[LittleWhiteBubble]

Thanks for the reply. I just checked for play, there is little to none whatsoever. Even the slightest jiggle of the wheel makes the tires move. The mechanics were at tire kingdom though, so not properly checking the tie rods are a big possibility. Another thing is maybe "wander" was not the best word to use. It doesn't feel like play in the steering when driving. It just feels like the alignment pulls in the direction you last turned. I also still can't account for the noise coming from somewhere between the steering wheel and the engine compartment area.

[93celicaconv]

I would take it to another shop to get another opinion. Tie rods would be a likely place to look, and if it is, I would get your money back on the alignment from the first place you went (they should not align a car if it has worn tie rods - and they should always inspect those first before starting any alignment work).

I supposed it could be ball joints or strut mounts that are binding, preventing a steering knuckle from turning properly. But that is highly unlikely. Again, this is something a good mechanic that does alignments would check before starting any alignment work.

[LittleWhiteBubble]

Yea I do most of my work myself, but steering and transmission work are my weaknesses. I'm going up to my mechanic's shop later today anyhow to have a company truck worked on, I'll see if he can look at it while I'm there. I'll post back what he says. If there's any more suggestions in the meantime, toss them out, and thanks again

[73sport]

Try this:
Jack the car up, support it with stands such that the front wheels are off the ground. Start the car and gently steer the wheel back and forth and back to center using your pinky so you feel everything.

-Does it turn equally the same throughout the entire travel? Does it favor a direction over another, does it steer itself?

- If the car is leaker, I might be suspect of the rack bushings being soaked. In some cases, you steer hard one way and rack moves the otherway and stays there until it settles back. The wheel never stays straight but the toe checks fine and the rack is fine.

I'd flush the fluid while its up there and steer it both ways to flush the rack pistons of all the old fluid.

$150 seems steep for a used rack. Tell him to throw in the pump, and four good tires and you'll take it!

[LittleWhiteBubble]

73sport, when I have it lifted and turn the wheels, should the car be running so the ps pump is going or should I leave it turned off? And as for the leaks, the only leak the car has is a slight leak from o-ring between the distributor and the head (which I should probably go ahead and replace for the whopping 50 cents for the gasket.) I'll check to see if it has leaked onto the bushings, but the few drops it lets out don't seem like enough to cause a problem. I'll give that a check when I get off work later and let you know what I find. Thanks

[LittleWhiteBubble]

Well I just got back from a trip to my mechanic. He said he had an avalon with the exact same problem, and its the only one he has seen like that. But he checked everything, including the bushings on the rack, and had it narrowed down to just the rack and pinion. That guy didnt want to pay to have it changed so he's been driving it that way for over a year. He quoted me 450 for parts and labor to change it, so I'll just wait until it's unbearable and have it done I suppose.

[2wickedtoyz]

with the car on have someone turn the steering wheel left to right and back.
look at the steering rack just under the master cylinder.
if it's moving left to right and not staying still, you'll need new bushings.
contact gabe "trd4life" and he can get you polybushings that will fix that, i bought 3 sets for all 3 of my cars.

[LittleWhiteBubble]

alright cool. If you don't mind me asking, how much do those bushing sets run, and how long did it take you to install them?

[cruisn76]

Originally Posted by LittleWhiteBubble

I recently changed my struts all the way around as my camry is a 92 and had the originals still. After changing them out I took it to be aligned and the shop told me they got it aligned but my rack and pinion is going bad. They said it was the rack and pinion because driving straight it is fine, but after turning left the car wanders left, and after turning right it wanders right, even though the alignment is good. Basically the wheel has a hard time centering.

Their diagnosis made sense to me, and I have also started to notice a little noise coming from what sounds like right behind the steering wheel. It sounds almost like a power steering pump would groan when low, but not nearly as loud. The fluid level does not seem to be going down in the reservoir though, so I've ruled out a leak. That leads me to believe either the valves are messed up in the rack and pinion or the power steering pump is too weak to keep the pressure in the rack.

I'm trying to see if anyone else has had this problem or can tell me whether it is the power steering or the rack. I'd just hate if its just the pump and I change out the entire rack for nothing. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

I have the exact problem on my 92. It is more noticeable when I have my winter tires on. My winter tires are 205/65/15 an because it has more surface coverage it really pulls hard to the left or right after making a left or right. On my summer tires it's less pull but still there.

To correct the pull I need to counter steer in the opposite direction and it will center but once I make a left or right it would pull again. (sometimes I look like a drunk driver cuz I am counter steering hard to the left or right to correcthang center) So as long a I make a left and then my next turn is a right I will always center. Other than that my mechanic said I have no leaks, no soaked bushings etc... He narrowed it down to the rack and pinion. I am not going to fix it since my 92 after this summer will be my winter beater and I will be driving another next summer.

At $450 it's a very steep price to pay. I say if it an item that won't fall off like a ball joint live with it. Worse comes to worse disable power steering.

[LittleWhiteBubble]

Yea I'm running some pretty fat 17 inch wheels on it (I forget the exact size), which I put on after the struts. So I think the pairing of a more responsive suspension and the fat tires made it more noticeable, but I think it was most likely there before. I only paid a hundred bucks for the car so even though its in nice shape, dropping that much money is hard for me to support too

[73sport]

Originally Posted by LittleWhiteBubble

73sport, when I have it lifted and turn the wheels, should the car be running so the ps pump is going or should I leave it turned off? And as for the leaks, the only leak the car has is a slight leak from o-ring between the distributor and the head (which I should probably go ahead and replace for the whopping 50 cents for the gasket.) I'll check to see if it has leaked onto the bushings, but the few drops it lets out don't seem like enough to cause a problem. I'll give that a check when I get off work later and let you know what I find. Thanks

You will want it running.
If you do the flush, you'll need a helper too as once the fluid is gone and you start the engine, the sump will be dry real fast and suck air into the pump. Turn it off. Fill the resovoir and start it again. Do this until the rack is full (while gently turning lock to lock) and the res is full.

^+1 Above is ground test. Try that too. Have a helper steer the car wheels on the ground. W/the hood up, wtch the rack. It shouldn't move in the bushings...

Do a search for "power steering flush" you'll see some ideas. I know I've got my 2 cents on a couple of posts 73sport

[LittleWhiteBubble]

Sounds good, thanks. I'll check the bushings tonight, and probably do the flush this weekend. Hopefully that will help it out or at least nurse it a little longer. At this point its more just something I notice and not so much something that bothers me yet, and I'm hoping I can keep it that way for a while.