Very Light/Sloppy Steering 94 Camry

[Sydneycamry]

Hey guys,

I have a 94 camry with about 228 800kms or 145000miles. Its the 4 cylinder 3sfe engine.

Recently when i've been driving the steering has become very very light. So light that i can use my index finger to do a 90 degree turn of the steering wheel. Also when i've been coming to a stop at lights and the road surface becomes uneven the steering if i'm holding it casually jolts to the side such that i have to violently correct it.

I've done some research and i'm guessing the tie rod ends are worn out. Would appreciate a confirmation if possible from the symptoms i've described. I only have myself to blame really. I bought the car for less than 2000 aussie dollars which is probably about 1000-1500 US dollars so i've driven in a care free fashion over speed bumps, quite fast(not over the limit though) but not slowing down much. Probably about 40Km/hr over speed bumps. When i've done this there is a intermediate clunk as if the oil pan is hitting the ground! But i don't thats possible?!? I think the suspensions are taking the force harder than its able too. I've also been slamming it on the bumps at parking spaces that indicate the end of the parking space:P if you get what i mean. Then there is a grinding/grazing sound.

When i bought it the steering was firm and agile for a camry:P, but now even can turn the wheel with his paw.

I'm scared that the steering wheel disengages from the wheels and i'll loose all steering control on high ways.

What do you blokes think is probably wrong? If anyone has done a tie rod ends change how difficult and time consuming is it? I can't do it myself i'm a poor university student. How expensive would it be? Do you have to take the whole steering and suspension system off.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Sydneycamry

[Jimnist]

Are you sure its the tie rods? Do you have the tools to do it? If not, it'd be best to take it to a mechanic. If you want, i can recommend someone.

My Cam was real sketchy going over continuously bumpy roads, especially corners and the front end felt loose. I found out the sway bar end bushes were dead and that's what was causing it. So give your car a good look over underneath. Those bushed held the front sway bar in the control arm.

Getting under the car (with it up on stands or ramps) and look at all the various steering and suspension components and bushes(sway bar, control arm, steering knuckle e.t.c.) mainly bushes. See if it's showing signs of wear i.e. cracks, splits, broken. Try dry steering (steering with the engine off) to see how much play there is in the rack/tie rod ends.

That thump you hear when going over speed bumps fast is the suspension bottoming out. Try not to do that too much, you can blow your shocks.

[Sydneycamry]

Thanks for the reply jimnist,

Na mate i have no tools or anything. I know some basics about cars but nothing about suspensions or steering.

No i don't know if it is the tie rods for sure. But i'm just guessing it is from what i've read and the symptoms that the camry has. It might just be need a wheel adjustment. I'll definitely have a look underneath and the various bushes etc. I'll try the dry steering, haven't tried that tbh.

I'll definitely stop going over the speed bumps fast, i think i have more respect for my car now, knowing that despite it being a toyota its not invincible and needs some tlc when driving.

Well i live in Sydney so would appreciate a recommendation. Also i was thinking of just taking it down to the local Kmart tyre and auto service place and doing a safety check. I know Pedders charge about 14 bucks but they are supposed to be really dodgy, well according to A current Affair. You wouldn't by any chance be able to guestimate how much Kmart will charge? My regular mechanic charges about 60 an hour for labour. So i don't think i can afford it just to see if there is anything wrong.

I'm just scared the steering control will be lost whilst on a high way and injure my occupants or some other fellow driver.

Thanks mate

[Jimnist]

If you don't have any tools, forget about doing it yourself. You'd spend at least $100 on a jack and some stands.Then maybe another $130 on a Supatool 1/2" dr socket set.

If you're close to the North Shore or don't mind driving, Arcus Auto Services in Artarmon is a good place. Talk to Scott, he's the owner and is a top bloke. Tell him Jim with the old blue Camry sent you. Their address is:

52 Hotham Parade
Artarmon
9439 3585

Have no clue about Kmart, but have heard they're pretty dodgy. Pedders can be a hit and miss as they're franchised. Scott use to be a Pedders but he sold the franchise, so he knows his stuff when it comes to suspension and steering.

[Sydneycamry]

Thanks mate!

By the way, how much would Scott or a mechanic in general charge just for a look at whats wrong?

[Sydneycamry]

Had it checked over by the Mechanic. Said it was all fine to him when he drove it. Jacked it up and checked suspensions and tie rods. And said it was fine but suggested a wheel alignment for the next service.

Thanks Jimnist

[Jimnist]

Did you take it to Scott or else where?

[Sydneycamry]

No not Scott. Atarmons a bit too far me Thanks though.

I feel my regular mechanic knows what his doing. He did drive it around for a good 10 minutes and jacked it up. He said the wheel alignment is out but its not very urgent. Didn't charge me a dime.

[73sport]

Very interesting . . .

Been around frame and alignment shops for a long time and never heard of a rack getting lighter as in offering "more power assist" over time.

Is this still a true statement - light pinky steering? When parked on asphalt with engine at idle and the wheels are straight, you turn them all the way right or left until it stops; does it turn "pinky easy" and what are the engine rpm's?

EDIT>>> I find only one explanation if all of that is true and IF its possible could lead to failure to assist or uncontrolled assist.

You familiar with a torsion bar? Inside the racks spool valve (the valve that decides how much hydraulic pressure to apply to the racks piston for power assist) a tiny torsion bar deflects when the wheel is turned and opens the valving to apply pressure.

A performance car has thicker stronger torsion bar so the driver has more "feel" of pressure required to negotiate turns.

Sedans and family cars are much lighter torsion bars and flex easier offering more driver assistance and less "feel" of the road.

In your case, this precision torsion bar is loosing strength which results in the spool valve opening larger amounts allowing more fluid to move the racks piston faster effectively "keeping up with the steering wheel demand" instantly.

Now I can't say this for certain, but springs can go weak either "weaken" or break! If yours does the later of the two it could cause an accident! Example, your steering with your pinky and loose power assist, your fail to make a corner.

OR worse, the power assist control once disconnected from the wheel COULD apply assistance ANY direction and cause you to fight the hydraulic system. I've never heard of this happening or seen one break but I have no exposure to bad racks!

I vote you replace the rack for safety reasons alone. . .
Please get another opinion, perhaps from rack and pinion rebuilding place would be best.

Have a qualified person check the pump output pressure and pressure relief valve.

[Sydneycamry]

Thanks for the concern 73sport. I wouldn't say it pinky steering. Its more like index finger steering. Even at idle i am able to turn it with my index, and once its been running for about 5 minutes its easier to turn with my index finger. Idle rpm is about 800-900 about 1000 when the AC is on. There isn't a change in rpm when the wheels are turned. Not significant at least. I have seen some little oil drops on the driveway though. There is a oil pan leak around the seal so its probably just that. There isn't a change in the power steering fluid level.

I have no idea what a torsion bar is to be honest. I'll wiki it.

Well the mechanic that i've gone to for years said its fine. He did jack it up initially did the 9-3 and 12-6 toe rod check and there was some movement but he said thats fine. He then moved the wheels to the maximal turn and he said that his just checking the suspensions. And said it was safe to drive.Not that i'm not disregarding what you've said. I appreciate your input very much. I guess he has a legal obligation to tell me if there was a problem with it.

From what i've gathered here, i think there may be problem that he may have missed, but my service is due next month anyway and i'll bring up the torsion bar cause with him then. I do feel reassured after letting him have a look though.

Thanks guys

[fenixus]

Originally Posted by Sydneycamry

Thanks for the concern 73sport. I wouldn't say it pinky steering. Its more like index finger steering. Even at idle i am able to turn it with my index, and once its been running for about 5 minutes its easier to turn with my index finger. Idle rpm is about 800-900 about 1000 when the AC is on. There isn't a change in rpm when the wheels are turned. Not significant at least. I have seen some little oil drops on the driveway though. There is a oil pan leak around the seal so its probably just that. There isn't a change in the power steering fluid level.

I have no idea what a torsion bar is to be honest. I'll wiki it.

Well the mechanic that i've gone to for years said its fine. He did jack it up initially did the 9-3 and 12-6 toe rod check and there was some movement but he said thats fine. He then moved the wheels to the maximal turn and he said that his just checking the suspensions. And said it was safe to drive.Not that i'm not disregarding what you've said. I appreciate your input very much. I guess he has a legal obligation to tell me if there was a problem with it.

From what i've gathered here, i think there may be problem that he may have missed, but my service is due next month anyway and i'll bring up the torsion bar cause with him then. I do feel reassured after letting him have a look though.

Thanks guys

i might be wrong man, no mechanic here, but it seems that your vane pump circulates power steering fluid at high flow ALL the time, not only when it's supposed to (when turning wheels). at least that would explain "lighter" steering wheel all the time and your engine rpms not dropping down when steering wheel stays in center.
it should be sitting at 700+/50 rpm with all accessories off, maybe 100 rpms higher when moving wheels. 1,000rpm with A/C running and no difference when turning wheels sounds like the e.g. P/S sensor detecting movement all the time (keeping p/s fluid at high flow) or something causing it mechanically ? anyone with more detailed insights, 73sport ?

numbers i posted are for gen4 5s-fe. i think gen3's had normal engine rpms (all accessories off) at 750+/50 which is a tad higher (not that much really)... yours still seem high like you had a vacuum leak or p/s pump was pumping heavily fluid all the time.

[73sport]

I've never seen that happen in the many years of autos I've been around.

I don't see any real correlation on the RPM. If held at 3000RPM I suspect it behaves the same.

FYI; unless said repair person is familiar with a "spool valve" they may just shake their head.

I did a search for pictures, they are out there but the text is difficult at best to understand. Mind you spool valves act and do the same thing in both conventional steering boxes as well as rack and pinions so don't just search for racks.

OK - this came to me and its a bit of a stretch, IF the pressure relief valve in the PS pump stuck and did not by-pass, I suppose it could shoot the line pressure up and possibly make the steering light??? Please check under the car looking at all FLEX hoses around the pump and rack for leaks. This would stick the RPM's higher too as the car would think there is demand all the time.

You might do a search for the FLUSH the Rack and Pinion thread and flush it. Flushing could free a stuck valve and the new oil is highly detergent.

Also for kicks, the by-pass actuates when the steering wheel hits the lock. Turn the wheel all the way one way. Do you hear the pump starting to work harder. Now hold it against the lock with a little force and raise the RPM to 2000. Does the sound change?

[Sydneycamry]

Originally Posted by fenixus

i might be wrong man, no mechanic here, but it seems that your vane pump circulates power steering fluid at high flow ALL the time, not only when it's supposed to (when turning wheels). at least that would explain "lighter" steering wheel all the time and your engine rpms not dropping down when steering wheel stays in center.
it should be sitting at 700+/50 rpm with all accessories off, maybe 100 rpms higher when moving wheels. 1,000rpm with A/C running and no difference when turning wheels sounds like the e.g. P/S sensor detecting movement all the time (keeping p/s fluid at high flow) or something causing it mechanically ? anyone with more detailed insights, 73sport ?

numbers i posted are for gen4 5s-fe. i think gen3's had normal engine rpms (all accessories off) at 750+/50 which is a tad higher (not that much really)... yours still seem high like you had a vacuum leak or p/s pump was pumping heavily fluid all the time.

Hi thanks mate. That could be a possibility. I guess ill just wait a month and see next time it gets serviced.

[Sydneycamry]

Originally Posted by 73sport

I've never seen that happen in the many years of autos I've been around.

I don't see any real correlation on the RPM. If held at 3000RPM I suspect it behaves the same.

FYI; unless said repair person is familiar with a "spool valve" they may just shake their head.

I did a search for pictures, they are out there but the text is difficult at best to understand. Mind you spool valves act and do the same thing in both conventional steering boxes as well as rack and pinions so don't just search for racks.

OK - this came to me and its a bit of a stretch, IF the pressure relief valve in the PS pump stuck and did not by-pass, I suppose it could shoot the line pressure up and possibly make the steering light??? Please check under the car looking at all FLEX hoses around the pump and rack for leaks. This would stick the RPM's higher too as the car would think there is demand all the time.

You might do a search for the FLUSH the Rack and Pinion thread and flush it. Flushing could free a stuck valve and the new oil is highly detergent.

Also for kicks, the by-pass actuates when the steering wheel hits the lock. Turn the wheel all the way one way. Do you hear the pump starting to work harder. Now hold it against the lock with a little force and raise the RPM to 2000. Does the sound change?

Well the mechanic drove the car for a good ten minutes and he said the steering feels fine to him, but then proceeded to jack it up and check for safety since i felt that it feels different to what it was previously.

Yes, when i turn the steering to full turn the pump is turned on and works harder because theres a distinct sound, i'll do this and accelerate to 2000 and tell you guys tomorrow. If the sound does change, what does that indicate?

As i said before, there is an oil pan leak, but there also seems to be oil around the CV joints, don't know whether thats something unrelated from when the owner had it before, and it doesn't seem to be fresh and dripping out though.

Also why is it that oil pan only leaks right after i've stopped it and not continuously like a dripping tap?

Thanks a lot for the input. This forum is really helpful.