Oil light on for too long at startup

[haux]

Upon startup, when all of the gauge cluster lights come on for a split second, the oil light has been lingering around for longer than usual. I would say even as long as two full seconds. The light DOES NOT and has not come on at any other time. This does not happen only in the morning. I have seen it happen in the middle of the day, when the car has not been off for too long. But it doesn't happen on every startup. (Every morning startup, yes)

I've had bad feelings about this lately. Unless I am mistaken, this tells me that the motor is taking longer to build pressure. Which may also mean that it doesn't have much longer left to live.

Is there anything else that can cause this to happen? I am not suspecting a faulty oil pressure switch, because I think that would cause the oil light to come on at other times also. Is there any chance that the oil pump can do this? The pump has never been replaced, only the seals/gaskets.

Gas mileage has been strange lately. For a while it was very poor, and after replacing the catalytic converter, it appeared to improve drastically. But then shortly after it declined again. Right now, in suburban stop/go driving, it can be as low as 22-23mpg. In heavy highway situations, it can be as high as 30mpg. 30 is about the most I have ever gotten out of this vehicle, even five years ago. Does this pattern reveal something I don't know?

For those who either do not remember any of my previous threads or have not ready any of them, I have put too much money into this vehicle to trash it. So, if this is a classic and proven sign of motor failure, the motor will have to be replaced. Do not recommend that I look for another vehicle.

I did a half-assed oil pressure test. The gauge I purchased did not have the correct fitting for the oil pressure hole. Even with a slight leak on that end, the numbers were within range of the specs provided by Toyota's official documents. My next step will be to have a compression test done. Do you guys think this will reveal more important information regarding this?

[uibalnme]

Well, at 351K+ I would think the oil pump should have been replaced(or the engine rebuilt). Also, at that mileage, I'm pretty sure the tolerances through the whole engine are very loose now. That may be why it's taking a bit longer to build pressure. What grade of oil are you running? Maybe you should move up to 15W-40 or maybe even 20W-50. I know that's really thick, but hell...351K? I knew a guy with over 500k on his motor(former LAX airport shuttle van), so he ran SAE50. That stuff is like molasses, but that motor ran pretty well on that grade.

[carsrus]

Yeah you should be running some pretty thick oil by now, 10w40 at a minimum. If the oil pump never been replaced and the pan dropped I would probably do that.

Any sludge issues or oil burning?

[JustinC25]

Don't worry about it. It may be as simple as using a different filter to remedy this problem.
What happens is if the anti-flow back valve in the oil filter is leaking, then it will take a few extra seconds for it to build up pressure, because the filter is empty at startup. I have the same problem on my '95 and it's fine.
I rebuilt the engine only 95k ago, and I had a new oil pump at that time. The pump is such a design that it doesn't wear out. I've seen new ones, and ones with 250k + and the rotors look the same. The only other thing it could be would be the pressure regulator spring, but if it was in spec when you checked it, it is fine. Try using a Toyota oil filter, or a quality aftermarket filter like a Wix or Napa Gold (Fram is NOT a quality filter). What grade of oil, and filter are you using? I'm running 5w30, and have been for quite some time. Thinner oil will flow faster at startup, and theoretically fill the filter faster, inorder to build pressure faster, but it won't build as much pressure as a thicker viscosity. As long as it runs good, and the light doesn't come on when it's running or driving then your fine. 351k+ is not the most miles I've seen on a Toyota.
The 5S-FE is a TOUGH engine, and it's built alot stronger than any of the new engines.
If you ever have the chance, see if you can google pics of a 5S-FE crank, and pics of a 2AZ-FE crank, and you'll see the difference.

[73sport]

^^ +1

Like said, it could be the filter bleeding off. Start with the simple things.

Here's a test: you say every time started cold, the light comes on. Pull the filter after its been sitting. If the filters empty, that likely explains it.

You might just hack that one open and look for metal.

Ditto on the WIX! Good stuff! Napa and other places carry them.

[haux]

I use Castrol GTX 5-30 High Mileage. I also use OEM filters. In fact, the oil was changed yesterday.

This is under the valve cover from around new year: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27.../motortop4.jpg

No sludge as far as I can tell? I'll have a more recent photo before too long. Next oil change I will try a thicker oil.

I was planning on dropping the pan when I got home - to change the gasket and replace the oil strainer.

[JohnGD]

High mileage oil has thicker viscosity than normal oil. So that alone should be fine. However, if it's warm where you're travelling, I'd use 10W-30 HM in there, or even 10W-40 as suggested.

So the oil pressure problem has been there before the new oil filter? I'd just pick up a PureOne PL14477 and replace it (without changing oil) and see what happends. Unless you have an OEM filter of a different batch number or preferably different manufacturer (e.g, Denso Japan, Denso Thailand, or Denso USA, etc), I wouldn't use OEM for this try.

No, compression test only checks the compression rings. It won't check bearing oil clearances or even the oil control rings. You need an oil pressure gauge for (indirect) checks of bearing clearances.

Are you using something like the $19.99 kit:
http://www.harborfreight.com/engine-...kit-98949.html

Are you getting about 8-10 PSI per 1000 rpms? And with the gauge in place, upon start-up, do you see the lag in building pressure?

If you were to drop the pan, I'd check the oil pickup screen and the o-ring where it joins the pump. Replace the o-ring, it may be sucking air. It's best to remove the pump and inspect the relief valve too, but that's too involved at the moment. Other simpler tests first.

Originally Posted by haux

I use Castrol GTX 5-30 High Mileage. I also use OEM filters. In fact, the oil was changed yesterday.

This is under the valve cover from around new year: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27.../motortop4.jpg

No sludge as far as I can tell? I'll have a more recent photo before too long. Next oil change I will try a thicker oil.

I was planning on dropping the pan when I got home - to change the gasket and replace the oil strainer.

[haux]

Originally Posted by JohnGD

Are you getting about 8-10 PSI per 1000 rpms? And with the gauge in place, upon start-up, do you see the lag in building pressure?

I used an oil pressure gauge with a fitting that did not quite fit. So there was a small leak at the engine side. Even with that, I got 14-15psi on startup/idle, and 55psi at 3,000 rpm. (then the fitting popped out and a quart of oil shot all over the place... *cough*)
I remember it taking ~2-3 seconds to build pressure though.

I had a feeling Harbor Freight would have what I needed.
I'll buy the kit you linked to and do a more proper test.

HF needs to be a TN sponsor! They seem to have everything anyone ever needs.

[JohnGD]

Ok, is the 14-15 PSI at 700 rpm or so? Then your pump should be fairly health and I don't think there's a problem with bearing clearances from what I can see in the numbers.

However, with the HF oil pressure tester see HOW FAST the pressure builds. I think it's the 1/8" Gas thread, or 1/8" British Standard Pipe, NOT the 1/8" NPT. I think this preesure build is key. I'd just replace the pressure switch if oil pressure build fast every time (say even overnight) according to the gauge.

Also, check the oil pressure switch, see if low pressure air can make it turn off (with ohmmeter at the other end). For example, use the air out port on top of the plastic MityVac and one of their pointy fittings.

However, I would still be interested in what condition the oil pickup tube suction side o-ring at the pump is in. I'm not saying this is the problem, but for me o-rings don't last forever. That's why ATF strainer should be replaced periodically as well for the gasket alone.

Originally Posted by haux

I used an oil pressure gauge with a fitting that did not quite fit. So there was a small leak at the engine side. Even with that, I got 14-15psi on startup/idle, and 55psi at 3,000 rpm. (then the fitting popped out and a quart of oil shot all over the place... *cough*)
I remember it taking ~2-3 seconds to build pressure though.

I had a feeling Harbor Freight would have what I needed.
I'll buy the kit you linked to and do a more proper test.

HF needs to be a TN sponsor! They seem to have everything anyone ever needs.

[haux]

Originally Posted by JohnGD

Ok, is the 14-15 PSI at 700 rpm or so? Then your pump should be fairly health and I don't think there's a problem with bearing clearances from what I can see in the numbers.

However, with the HF oil pressure tester see HOW FAST the pressure builds. I think it's the 1/8" Gas thread, or 1/8" British Standard Pipe, NOT the 1/8" NPT. I think this preesure build is key. I'd just replace the pressure switch if oil pressure build fast every time (say even overnight) according to the gauge.

Also, check the oil pressure switch, see if low pressure air can make it turn off (with ohmmeter at the other end). For example, use the air out port on top of the plastic MityVac and one of their pointy fittings.

However, I would still be interested in what condition the oil pickup tube suction side o-ring at the pump is in. I'm not saying this is the problem, but for me o-rings don't last forever. That's why ATF strainer should be replaced periodically as well for the gasket alone.

I can't say for sure what rpm I got during the startup of the testing I did. My normal idle rpm is low, about 650. When the radiator fans turn on or if the steering wheel is turned, the rpms go up. I believe that during the testing the rpms were a bit higher, maybe even 900. I'll do the test with the HF kit maybe on Monday or tomorrow, so I'll get some more accurate numbers, and I'll post my observations.

You mentioned to replace the oil pressure switch if the pressure builds FAST even after sitting overnight? I don't think the pressure builds fast. If anything, it builds really slowly. And yes, I think the pressure is the problem too. I think this is what causes my low idle rpm.
I believe this is also what caused the "hesitations" we tried to figure out in that other thread. I still get slight hesitations on startup. The rpms drop slightly and then go back up. With my "new" muffler, I can hear the difference in noise it makes during this process. It's almost like it's struggling to get going.

Although the metal components of the oil pump are original, I replaced all of the seals/o-rings in 2008 during the timing belt job. So the pump was thoroughly cleaned.

[JohnGD]

Has this happened before or after using high mileage oil? This current OEM filter? Previous OEM filters?

Since it happens every morning, and sometimes in the day (after operation), I'm wondering if you should just replace the oil filter with a PureOne PL14477 and see before going through the oil pressure test again, because at least when it's working the oil pressure looks good.

So we can first try to rule out oil drainback from the filter by replacing it with something different than what you'd been using (OEM Denso?). And the PureOne is a decent filter.

And if this doesn't solve the problem, then use the oil pressure tester to find out how long and under what circumstances the oil pressure rises slowly.

[haux]

Originally Posted by JohnGD

Has this happened before or after using high mileage oil? This current OEM filter? Previous OEM filters?

Since it happens every morning, and sometimes in the day (after operation), I'm wondering if you should just replace the oil filter with a PureOne PL14477 and see before going through the oil pressure test again, because at least when it's working the oil pressure looks good.

So we can first try to rule out oil drainback from the filter by replacing it with something different than what you'd been using (OEM Denso?). And the PureOne is a decent filter.

And if this doesn't solve the problem, then use the oil pressure tester to find out how long and under what circumstances the oil pressure rises slowly.

It's not RECENT as in... it didn't just happen. It's been going on for... maybe a month? Prior to that, I have been eyeballing the oil light because it was still staying on for longer than the other lights. That was going on for quite a while - several months. But it was literally just a fraction of a second longer. At that point I didn't think anything of it.

When I left town in Jan/Feb or whenever, I was using the same oil and filter as now. The next oil change was at Pep Boy's where I used regular castrol 5-30 (they were out of high mileage), and I had them put on a PureOne filter. I don't remember the model number but I posted about it in a thread where I was asking about the longer filters. Pep Boy's refused to put on the longer one because they had to use whatever was officially "compatible" with my vehicle. At that point the oil light was still just staying on for a fraction of a second as before.

I got another oil change pretty recently... same castrol gtx oil (they charged too much more for high mileage), and the shop put on a Valvoline filter. As far as I can recall, I only remember seeing the oil light stay on unusually longer AFTER that day. I don't remember if it was immediately after.

Just to make sure it wasn't the filter or oil or something stupid, I got the oil changed again. This particular shop let me provide my own oil and filter (Castrol GTX HM 5-30 and OEM filter) and just charged me $17 for labor. This didn't fix anything except performance (acceleration is better).

I'll review that other thread on Sunday and see which PureOne filter I had used that previous time.

[JohnGD]

I think that filter was the equivalent of PL14476 or L14476. That's the standard 5SFE size. I don't know who makes Valvoline filters, but Pennzoils and many other corner station filters are made by Fram I think.

What you did should rule out oil/filter issue. I don't think this is an oil pump rotor issue, at least not in terms of the volume of oil it can pump out. Because the oil pressure you recorded look just fine, and certainly above the general rule of thumb of 10psi/1000rpm.

My guess is the oil circuit got emptied faster than before. The question is where (for example, rotor-to-housing clearance, relief valve, etc). I recall reading posts of many other 4-cyl owners finding their oil filters empty soon after shut off for oil changes. So the drainback issue may be related to a 5SFE design issue that's more widespread.

Castrol is a good oil in any grade, even their ATFs are decent. Most of the country is fairly warm these days. And for 5SFE you might want to go with 10W-30 weight the next time. During winter a synthetic (Mobil-1 $4.99 O'Reilly on sale now. Stock up, I did!) or syn-blend 5W-30 (such as WalMart Motorcraft at $2.77/qt. They have 10W30 too. Good value.) should be fine.

And if you feel OEM filter gives you better performance, I'd stick with it. A Honda owner who insisted OEM felt the engine sluggish after an oil change, so he took it to me. I drove down to Pep Boys and got a PureOne, swapped it in (no oil change) and fixed it right up. After that he's a PureOne customer. (Honda uses Fram or Filtech oil filters made to spec. They have more pleats than the orange ones so I wouldn't say they're just as bad as orange.)

That's why I asked if this happened right after an oil change, but it didn't sound like that was the case, but instead over a longer period of time (except on that day it the light was on longer). I'd focus more on oil circuit emptying after shutdown.

Originally Posted by haux

It's not RECENT as in... it didn't just happen. It's been going on for... maybe a month? Prior to that, I have been eyeballing the oil light because it was still staying on for longer than the other lights. That was going on for quite a while - several months. But it was literally just a fraction of a second longer. At that point I didn't think anything of it.

When I left town in Jan/Feb or whenever, I was using the same oil and filter as now. The next oil change was at Pep Boy's where I used regular castrol 5-30 (they were out of high mileage), and I had them put on a PureOne filter. I don't remember the model number but I posted about it in a thread where I was asking about the longer filters. Pep Boy's refused to put on the longer one because they had to use whatever was officially "compatible" with my vehicle. At that point the oil light was still just staying on for a fraction of a second as before.

I got another oil change pretty recently... same castrol gtx oil (they charged too much more for high mileage), and the shop put on a Valvoline filter. As far as I can recall, I only remember seeing the oil light stay on unusually longer AFTER that day. I don't remember if it was immediately after.

Just to make sure it wasn't the filter or oil or something stupid, I got the oil changed again. This particular shop let me provide my own oil and filter (Castrol GTX HM 5-30 and OEM filter) and just charged me $17 for labor. This didn't fix anything except performance (acceleration is better).

I'll review that other thread on Sunday and see which PureOne filter I had used that previous time.

[haux]

I went ahead and put the PL14477 filter on tonight. $6.50 isn't much to give it a try.

The car sat for three hours to cool down before I did it, so the OEM filter was completely drained by that point. Only residual oil remained inside.

Based on what I see from AutoZone's website, my next thicker oil options for Castrol GTX High Mileage are 10W-30, 10W-40, and 20W-50. What's the thickest that I can safely try?

[Chris Crash]

Since it's warming up, you could try just straight 30 weight and see if it affects the light.