gen 3 Camry won't start

[geezee]

I know this is vague, I'm looking for likely places to start before paying to have this thing towed into shop. 1993 Camry LE, 100,000 miles, 2.2 4cyl. Its been starting and running fine. Shut it off. Next time went to start it it simply turned over freely with like no resistance in the system. Ie: normally a car will have some loping and trying to start, maybe sputtering, not just cranking freely. I know poor description. At any rate I am positive its cranking the engine, accy belts, timing belt (which is 2yrs old), etc, are indeed rotating. However the motor spins over relatively easily and makes no attempt at starting whatsoever, doesnt even sputter. This happened suddenly, no warning. I suspect no spark, like the coil pack failed and the lack of any ignition spark in all cylinders has lead to it turning over freely. If this is the 'highly likely' culprit I'm willing to gamble the $65 to install a new one, I don't have an assistant to crank it over while I shock myself (I mean check spark) under the hood. I do suspect the coil at 17yrs of age and 100k miles, simply from experience and the fact it seems to be effecting all cylinders simultaneously.... Ideas ??? Next step is the costly tow-trip to the shop and I'm basically at their mercy for "oh its a fuzzy-wuzzy and that's $1500" you all know that deal....
Thanks for any and all ideas !
Z

[93celicaconv]

Let's ask a few questions:

You said repeatedly that the engine turns over freely, and at the beginning, with no resistance. You know what an engine sounds like when you first turn the key to start it, and before it actually starts, right? Does it still sound like that? Or does it sound like an electric motor running steady speed, just a steady noise?

How do you know the timing belt is turning? It is totally enclosed by a cover. Have you taken one of the covers off to verify it is turning?

If the engine turns over in an attempt to start it and has a steady noise like an electric motor running, what I would recommend at this point is to pull your distributor cap off of the distributor. Then, with 2 people, someone turn the key as if to start the engine, and the other person watch the rotor that normally spins inside the distributor cap. Does it rotate/spin? If not, your timing belt has either snapped or jumped off of the camshaft pulley (most likely broke apart).

Take a look at this and let us know what you observe.

[geezee]

The rotor is turning when the engine is cranked, I removed the dizzy cap and verified this. The timing belt is intact, granted it might have jumped a tooth or so however I'd think it would still try to start, maybe even start and run really crappy (misfiring, etc, I have had this happen when other vehicle's timing belts/chains failed/slipped). It is not trying to start at all. And no its not like an electric motor turning freely, the engine is cranking over but there is no resistance to that free cranking or any firing/misfiring/sputtering/backfiring whatsoever. I seem to think there is no spark, no ignition(in time or out of time) ergo the free cranking of the motor. I could be entirely wrong. And the sources of an abrupt, complete loss of spark are like in the thousands !

[93celicaconv]

Well, in a shop, no resistance to an electric motor (starter) turning an engine means the sound of it is a steady hum when turning, no compression sounds or anything. That is what a shop mechanic interprets what you said. I think you have compression cycles, so you don't have a steady humming noise.

Sure, probably best at this point to take out a spark plug wire from the plug, put another spark plug into the wire, ground the base of the spark plug to the engine somewhere solid, and turn the engine over again. Do you get a nice, large blue spark across the the plug? Or just a faint yellow spark? Or no spark at all?

Try this now and see what you have. Hopefully you have an extra spark plug available. If not, you will have to take one out of the engine.

[toovira]

Like 93celicaconv said. Spark is the easiest to check. If you really have no one around, you can buy a under the hood starter switch:

Amazon

Amazon

Next to that, I'd vote to put the car in diagnostic mode.....can be done at diag port in the hood or under the steering column. First off, remove EFI fuse in the front left box (near the headlight) for at least 10 seconds. Reinstall the fuse, this will clear up all previous error code. After that, use a wire to jump between TE2 pin and E1 (now the car is in diag mode). Try start the engine and leave the key in running car position (even if engine is not on). Then you short the wire from TE2 to E1 (this will give you the error code(s))....record and interpret the code.

If you do get an error code, try to follow the troubleshooting steps.

But....if you get spark, check the fuel system. First is to get fuel pressure gauge on there. Don't even try to find M12x1.25 banjo bolt (for the top of the fuel filter)....you're better off buying the fuel pressure test kit that comes with it. Test fuel system per spec.

All these things should be done with a presumably good battery.

If you got air/fuel&spark...your engine should do something.....good or bad.

[93celicaconv]

And maybe to add to what Toovira already stated, follow up with checking your cylinder compression pressures on all cylinders - just to make sure you have the compressioin pressures needed. With this, you would have done the air, fuel, and spark components. If all that checks out, we would need to check timing.

[geezee]

Thanks for the inputs ! Sorry I was not clear on the cranking/free spinning electric motor descriptions.... The engine is indeed turning over. I will check for spark this evening, using the procedure described. I also have a comp tester and can run down the 4 cylinders to confirm compression pretty easily. (Guess I better put a charger on the battery). I did not check anything to do with the fuel system yet. I've never had a fuel system fail in that manner (I know, first time for everything), that being, back to my original failure: drove the car, shut it off (all normal) went to drive a few days later, turned key and it cranked but made no attempt whatsoever to start and it turned over like it had no compression. Seems to me even if the fuel system had failed there would have been some residual fuel in the system to at least give me a brief sputter. I could also give a shot of a combusible liquid in the throttle body and should also get an engine sputter (if there was spark). Which I have not done, either. And yes I know this is risky for backfire, etc...Thanks again-Z-

[93celicaconv]

Re: Fuel pump & system: No, not at all...if your fuel pump fails, you will not get a whimper out of your car.

Unlike carburated engines which will continue to run until the fuel in the bowl is empty, a fuel injected car has to have at least 35-40 psi fuel pressure for the injectors to spray fuel into the intake manifold/engine. Anything less than this, it will not do anything. If the fuel pump is not working, no fuel pressure, so no way for the fuel injectors to get fuel to spray out.

Sometimes fuel pumps do fail like this - run fine, but because there may be a bad spot in the rotor of the fuel pump motor, it may have last stopped at that exact spot, and now it will not turn back on. The fuel pump is a very good possibility here.

[toovira]

Yup, electric fuel pump would give you nothing when it's dead....exactly what you're describing. Start with spark....make sure you get that....If you do, try some starting fluid. Spray starting fluid into the intake manifold (post-air filter)....then see if she starts. If she does (and of course, it'll die after ran out of starting fluid), you're more than likely lacking fuel. Then...you have to find out why you're lacking fuel.

I'd probably say with lacking fuel, the most probably culprit is fuel pump. Obviously, check the fuel pump fuse. Also check EFI fuse/relay (these are for injectors). Replace fuel filter if you haven't done that in a while. If you have the service manual, you can use the diag port and directly turn on the fuel pump by turn the ignition key to on and jump between +B and FP......then hook up fuel pressure gauge.

If you don't have FPG, you can disconnect the return line post Fuel Pressure Regulator to see if fuel is flowing. With fuel, you're in between fuel pump, FPR, fuel filter, and EFI....and other than that, check for clogged lines.

[geezee]

Wow I just posted a long reply and lost it. Crap.
I have checked spark. I do appear to have a medium bright white spark. Its definitely not blue, its moderately bright white, altho honestly I don't check spark all that often so IDK exactly what it shoudl look like.

The two plugs I removed to look at both had a slightly wet look and odor of gasoline, so I think fuel is getting there.

I have removed the air box, I shot carb cleaner into the intake and got a slight sputter on cranking.
I then shot starting fluid in (opened butterfly first) and got no attempt to start whatsoever, just cranks.

I have checked compression: starting at the Dizzy end of the engine (drivers side) my compression is 145, 140, 145, 130 . I did this with all the other plugs installed. I am not sure if ur supposed to remove them all at once or one at a time. I removed one at a time.

Anybody thinking (real) weak spark, or grossly out of time ?

BTW the car ran fine, was shut off and sat one week unused, then when I went to start it it wouldn't even try, I hasn't since.

[toovira]

You got compression and the engine cranks over. So that's all set.

Now, I would have expect blur arc....what shade should you expect? I can best describe it with the bluish purple of the plasma globe. The fact that you have gasoline smell on 2 of the plugs concerns me....if you have proper spark, why should there be gasoline left?

Clear the error code by removing EFI fuse. Try put your car in diagnostic mode....see if you get any error code.

If you don't have a multimeter, run to home depot and spend $10 on it. Check the resistance of the spark plug wires, check the resistance of the ignition coil primary and secondary.

The fact that you have gasoline left doesn't necessarily that you're getting proper fuel. The old carburator system, the fuel pump uses vacuum of the engine to suck the gasoline. With the EFI, the fuel pump in the tank pressurizes the fuel line.....the injectors just open and closes and only thing that changes is how long the injector opens.....the time is controlled by the ECU. Disconnect the fuel return line and see if you get flow to start with......you'll see 2 metal-to-rubber lines from under the car. Trace one that comes out of the fuel rail and disconnect that one. The other is the fuel line from tank to the fuel rail.

How do the plugs look? White deposits? Black deposits? oil deposits? Corroded electrodes?

[Pvt-Public]

My money is on timing belt jumped. Manually crank the engine to TDC on #1 Cylinder compression stroke. Then see if the dist rotor is pointing at the plug wire for cyl. #1.

[geezee]

I replaced the coil, $46 at Advance auto parts, and the car immediately started. IDK if this is a common failure mode on these older Camrys, however its what took mine out of the game.... FYI all.....

[toovira]

It's certainly a common problem in any old car. The enamel of the copper wire in the primary or secondary coil will break down over time. This causes internal arcing, resulting in you losing the spark plug arcing - hence the weak arc. That's why the resistance check in the primary and secondary ignition coil was important.

[Mike Gerber]

Originally Posted by geezee

I replaced the coil, $46 at Advance auto parts, and the car immediately started. IDK if this is a common failure mode on these older Camrys, however its what took mine out of the game.... FYI all.....

Very common on the first three generation of Camrys as these cars age and rack up lot's of miles. Starting with the generation 4 Camry in 1997 Toyota went to distributorless ignition systems and coil packs.

Mike