One for the experts...

[Chris Crash]

I hate making threads, but this is rather unusual.

As you may know, when I did my engine swap 5000 miles ago, I had the transmission rebuilt completely and put a brand new flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing, and rear main seal.

Well first, the rear main seal looks to be leaking. Don't know how at only 5000 miles.

Second, last week my car started having some shifting problems. It started out as sometimes you push the clutch and it won't go in gear, so you pump the clutch again and it does just fine.
A few days later, ocassionally when you push the clutch in, there is a rattling/chattering sound of metal on metal. And then it would be hard to get in gear.

Today I was at work and this was happening, but would not stop. Every gear would chatter, grind and take a ridiculous amount of force and clutch pumping to keep going. I got it towed home and left work early. Pulled the transmission and this is what I saw:

The clutch disc looks brand new on the pressure plate side. It looks completely worn on the flywheel side. PP and flywheel also look new, no cracks or heat spots.

So. I'm curious as to how that makes sense of causing my symptoms, and WHY would the disc be so worn on one side only? If I was driving too harshly, it would have worn the PP and the other side of the disc and the flywheel equally...

Just wondering if there's another problem (like maybe the throwout bearing) that I should look into while I have the trans apart and have the ability to tinker.

I'll get pics later, it's dark now.

[71Corolla]

Any possibility the clutch plate was put in backwards? Is it true that these cars do not have a pilot bearing? The rear main seal must have been damaged or defective when new, or installed wrong for it to leak.

I'm sure the experts will be able to tell you, especially when you post pics. I have not worked with a manual tranny in forever, sad actually.

[Chris Crash]

We got a throwout bearing. Don't know what a pilot bearing is, haven't touched anything called that.

Is there a certain way the clutch disc is supposed to be put in?

[Jason.MZW20]

The rear main seal is a picky bitch. It's very easy for it to be installed incorrectly. All it needs is a slightly uneven seal to leak. I had to reset mine about 2-3 times before it finally set in place correctly. Since I did a complete rebuild, I had to reseal the rear main housing as well with RTV (did that first of course). Refer to the FSM, as it also needs to be coated in grease on the contact portions. I used moly EP grease.

Regarding the clutch, did you remove the protective oil layer on the flywheel and pressure plate surface areas? They're usually coated in oil to prevent rust, much like brake rotors. Sounds like the flywheel side of the clutch was slipping, possibly on oil, so it could've also been from the rear main, if any oil seeped/flung into the clutch area. Did you also adjust the clutch engagement via the clutch pedal? New pressure plates sometimes require a small adjustment. Many people also forget to grease the contact portions of the throwout bearing, clutch splines, and other areas, resulting in a noisy TB when the pedal is disengaged.

Pictures will help. But basically, when the PP is fully engaged (pedal disengaged), the clutch, flywheel and PP are all turning in unison. If, for some reason, the flywheel side of the clutch is slippery, it will wear that side of the disc faster when fully engaged, but you'd also have issues putting power down, as well as difficulty shifting.

[71Corolla]

Originally Posted by Chris Crash

We got a throwout bearing. Don't know what a pilot bearing is, haven't touched anything called that.

It goes in the center of the crankshaft.

Is there a certain way the clutch disc is supposed to be put in?

I think so. All the ones I've done, the side that protrudes more goes towards the pressure plate side. Might not be the case for you though. I remember seeing guys put the clutch disc in backwards, and parts of it started hitting the crankshaft bolts when the clutch wore a bit, that's why I mentioned it.

[Jason.MZW20]

Originally Posted by 71Corolla

It goes in the center of the crankshaft.

I think so. All the ones I've done, the side that protrudes more goes towards the pressure plate side. Might not be the case for you though. I remember seeing guys put the clutch disc in backwards, and parts of it started hitting the crankshaft bolts when the clutch wore a bit, that's why I mentioned it.

Ours are like that too, except the flywheel side has the protrusion. So, it's also possible the disc was installed incorrectly.

[Chris Crash]

Originally Posted by Jason.MZW20

The rear main seal is a picky bitch. It's very easy for it to be installed incorrectly. All it needs is a slightly uneven seal to leak. I had to reset mine about 2-3 times before it finally set in place correctly. Since I did a complete rebuild, I had to reseal the rear main housing as well with RTV (did that first of course). Refer to the FSM, as it also needs to be coated in grease on the contact portions. I used moly EP grease.

Regarding the clutch, did you remove the protective oil layer on the flywheel and pressure plate surface areas? They're usually coated in oil to prevent rust, much like brake rotors. Sounds like the flywheel side of the clutch was slipping, possibly on oil, so it could've also been from the rear main, if any oil seeped/flung into the clutch area. Did you also adjust the clutch engagement via the clutch pedal? New pressure plates sometimes require a small adjustment. Many people also forget to grease the contact portions of the throwout bearing, clutch splines, and other areas, resulting in a noisy TB when the pedal is disengaged.

Pictures will help. But basically, when the PP is fully engaged (pedal disengaged), the clutch, flywheel and PP are all turning in unison. If, for some reason, the flywheel side of the clutch is slippery, it will wear that side of the disc faster when fully engaged, but you'd also have issues putting power down, as well as difficulty shifting.

I did grease everything. Didn't RTV the rear main seal housing, though. I'll do that while I'm here though. I did buff the flywheel and PP before installing it, so I got the oil off. Also used brake cleaner. I did recently (few days ago) adjust the clutch pedal and made the rod longer. I also bled the clutch two days ago. No difference with either.

Assuming the rear main seal IS leaking, that's where the oil would be coming from. I did grease all the clutch points you mentioned. Let me go take pics right now. Will post soon.

[Chris Crash]

^ pressure plate side (well, side I had against the PP)


^ closeup of pressure plate side of disc


^ flywheel side


^ closeup of flywheel side


^ closeup of flywheel


^ closeup of pressure plate

[Jason.MZW20]

Which side is the protruding side? If it's on the pressure plate side, then the disc was installed backwards.

[Chris Crash]

The protruding side was against the flywheel. That's the side that is ridiculously worn down.

I think oil leaking fro mthe rear main seal got onto the disc and caused a whole lot of excess slipping.

What do you think?

[Rall28]

Originally Posted by Chris Crash

The protruding side was against the flywheel. That's the side that is ridiculously worn down.

I think oil leaking fro mthe rear main seal got onto the disc and caused a whole lot of excess slipping.

What do you think?

...

I think...it's not worn down... !!!!

It's totally disintegrated !!!! (That's not just wear...unless you meant it has 150K on it!)

With all the disc material missing on that side...that will cause a HUGE racket.... & other problems I'm sure...
And the wear on the tranny side of the disk & the heat marks on the flywheel are probably caused by the missing friction material making the disk way too thin to grip & the clutch slipping badly.

Oil from the rear main seal caused it? ... Maybe...but I've seen oil soaked disks before that were messed up & glazed & slipped bad...but didn't come apart.
But still..oil causing it to swell & come apart... that might be the best guess....


Probably... all related to your oil leak...

BUT MAYBE...it might be an out of alignment in your trans to engine ...(you did say your pilot bearing was OK, right?)
or the incorrect, or a faulty clutch disk... or ????

I would look real hard at all the possibilities, before I just assumed it was the oil leak!!!


Anyway someone with more experience will probably have a better idea...I haven't worked on manual tranny in years....



.....

[Rall28]

...


I forgot to add....It doesn't look like the trans side of the disk is oil soaked...???

If that is correct.... As I recall...I've never seen just ONE side of a clutch disk get oil soaked ...and the other side look perfectly dry! Oil pretty much gets EVERYWHERE !!!!

So that might be another reason to look a little farther ... on why your clutch disk came apart...other than just blaming your rear main oil leak!

Just an idea for thought....I'm not an expert, that's for sure!


...

[Chris Crash]

Well, inside the trans and all over the flywheel, clutch and PP is the shredded fiberglass you would normally expect to find dry, but it's all wet and greasy, soaked in oil. Everything you touch (including the disc) is covered in it. So oil has been getting in and around everywhere.

I don't know about the pilot bearing, where is that? The only bearing I remember doing/know the name of is the throwout bearing which I had bought a brand new one from Toyota when I did all the work 5000 miles ago.

And yeah, I didn't think it looked like "normal" wear for only 5k miles...I expected it all to look still brand new (kinda like the flip side of the disc!)

to be honest I was kind of hoping that my pressure plate or disc was just cracked in two, then I would know that it was the problem.

Also, you said you could see heat marks on the flywheel. Is it good enough to keep? Or do I need another new one? I just bought this one when I did the rest of the work (5000 miles ago) and would rather not buy another...

[73sport]

Originally Posted by Chris Crash

^ pressure plate side (well, side I had against the PP)

If that statement is true, its in backwards "^ pressure plate side (well, side I had against the PP)"!

To clarify; proper assembly would be to flip the Disc over and set it on the flywheel. Flat FW goes to the flat side of the Clutch disc. The Spring side of the clutch disc goes towards the large open hole in the Pressure plate.


Looks like the oil's been slung but OILED clutches typically don't burn up. They slip like mad! So you have this: It slips, its oiled, and it doesn't disengage. So either the CD doesn't slide on the input shaft or it was on backwards. What to the FW bolt heads look like? Any contact?

Does the PP slide fully onto the input shaft (pull off and rotate, try a couple of places). If it hangs up, that adds to the fact about why it doesn't release and why its worn on one side. Because it can't move out of the way. But this seems rare and odd but it happens!

A bad PP; the fingers can account for no disengagement and slipping. But slipping burns both sides UP normally, well until you oil one side. Which appears to be happening.

The rear main won't oil the clutch until the bell housing damn near fills up because the flywheel slings it ALL OVER making a huge mess in the bell. See what I'm saying, there is no direct path as that flywheel has no holes in it so centrifugal force flings outward NOT at the clutch.

Looking at the yellow PP, the oil is likely gear oil being slung onto the clutch from inside the trans! In this case, the seal on the input shaft let go and the gives a direct shot at the clutch plate. So the side that got oiled, slips while the other side burns and makes those hot spots on the flywheel. THe FW needs resurfaced or it'll chatter forever.


Sorry Chris. . .

[73sport]

This side goes towards the PP!