Not your average 5SFE N/A build... - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums


» Auto Insurance
» Featured Product
» Wheel & Tire Center

Go Back   Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums > Toyota Passenger and Sports Car Forums > Camry and Solara Forum > 3rd & 4th Generation (1992–1996 & 1997–2001)

3rd & 4th Generation (1992–1996 & 1997–2001) Toyota Camry Discussion for years: 1992-1996 & 1997-2001 Topics of discussion range from fuel economy, safety, modifications, performance all involving America's favorite family car, the Toyota Camry.

ToyotaNation.com is the premier Toyota Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-10-2010, 10:31 PM   #1 (permalink)
I cheated with 7075 Al
 
N/A Camry Sleeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Memphis
Posts: 491
Gameroom cash: $161600
Thanks: 53
Thanked 43 Times in 27 Posts
Supreme Member
iTrader Score: 3 reviews
View N/A Camry Sleeper's Photo Gallery
Not your average 5SFE N/A build...

Greetings!

I have been holding out posting this until I got a little further along with the build, but now is as good a time as ever...

When most people think about adding power to the venerable 5SFE, they think of adding boost, or sometimes a blower. More rarely some will consider adding a shot of N2O...but what about N/A builders? Where are they? Since I know of only a handful of guys that have been successful with building a naturally aspirated 5S motor, and they live mainly on the MR2 forums, I figured I should share a current work in progress with yall...

The goals of this build are twofold - Retain daily driveability but also have the snappy throttle response of a properly built N/A engine to boot with a quick downshift. We all know that the redline of the 5S motor is 6300 RPM - not really conducive for power making. So the first thing is to build reliability above that range and well into and beyond 9000 RPM.

Starting with the bottom end are some specialty JET titanium rods which I bought used for $400 and were found to be in great shape (kinda rolled the dice here I know, I got lucky!)




These rods are used in midget cars with a 2.7L motor with a 11000RPM redline - much higher than I plan to go with it! They also feature 7/16th inch bolts for less high-RPM stretch. The stock 5S rod is on top...

However, I ran into a problem very early on in the build - the rods were 6.000" center to center length. Stock 5S rods are 5.433" long...hmmm....

So I decided to destroke the motor .450" total in order to make these rods work for me. I realize I could have gone the other way with different sized rods, but for $400, I was already committed and found out later that this was not a bad idea at all. I found an aftermarket forging which was 38.4 lbs with standard bearing sizes opposed to the 41 lb stock 5S factory crank - with the destroke and knife-edging it may be close to 30 lbs which will be great for my application.

Furthermore and most importantly, these Ti rods weigh only 452g each - and just so happen to be big end and small end balanced to 100mg between rods - stock 5S rods are I think 680g apiece - that's a MAJOR rotating/reciprocating weigh reduction there which will translate into much more power at the wheels in the first two gears. But the weigh reduction doesn't stop there...the small end of the rod measures .929" which enables me to use titanium DLC coated wrist pins weighing only 77g each. Stock 5S wrist pins weigh 130g each.

Pistons will of course have to be custom built, and I am looking at a CR of 12.5:1 plus or minus .25 to 1. Stock pistons weigh 360 to 365g each, and the customs will likely weigh between 250 and 300g apiece, hard to say with the increased CR though.

So the bottom end will see a weight savings of at least 10 lbs for the crank, 2.1 lbs for the rods, and almost a half pound for the pins. The pistons are not built yet so I can't even try to speculate on those. The long rod/short stroke of this motor will load the cylinder walls much less than the stock motor which should help bearing life and reduce friction. Another benefit of the long rod ratio is increased dwell time at TDC. This translates into less need for advancing ignition timing - which reduce chances of detonation (especially with the 12.5:1 CR)

The cylinder head will have to be the masterpiece of the motor - much more work will go into it than the bottom end. I was lucky to get a hold of some used titanium valves from an IRL builder which were 6mm stemmed. The heads are obviously too large for a direct bolt-in, but I have lathe skills and plan to use them. I am hoping to turn these down to 2 or 3mm oversize both sides, and use shimless buckets I bought from a guy in Ireland for only $1.25 apiece!







The exhaust valves will be a little more user-friendly; the intake will require a little more work. Titanium likes to bond with carbide if you cut too fast, so machining costs are a little elevated

Reducing reciprocating weight from the valvetrain will also help with high-RPM power and serve to extend the powerband a little more before valve float occurs. These valves may need to be ZrN coated to help with heat resistance and corrosion, especially the exhaust side, for longer life. Titanium valves are the most advanced material available I know of currently for the application, and a good coating will ensure long life.

Another thing I learned in the MR2 forum was to make an adjustable cam setup for the 5SFE, thanks to mrturrari. I haven't progressed that far into the build yet, but the main idea is to make each cam independently adjustable; namely the intake to lessen reversion with the long-duration setup I plan on using. I want to ATTEMPT to balance streetability and high-RPM power, and I know the 2zz does this by the VVT-i (which I won't have) and higher CR (2zz is 11:1 IIRC). May be able to circumvent this partially with the titanium valves - their lower recip mass should allow for a more aggressive profile while the intakes can be opened/closed quicker to reduce reversion (just a theory though). So the cams will need to be a total custom job to make the most out of the lightweight valves, there goes another $800 at least!

No N/A build would be complete without some kind of porting/polishing, and that's where most of the focus of cylinder head work will come into play. 5S cylinder heads have PLENTY of material to work with - the main idea is to make everything larger and smooth out any transitions, bumps, casting flash, etc. If you can envision water flowing through a passage - any bump or impedance will slow down the rate of flow. Air is a fluid as well and behaves in exactly the same manner, although it is much less viscous. Everyone will tell you that a Dremel tool is the porter's best friend, and this is true; but EXTRUDE HONING should be a next-to-last step for the highest-quality portjob. This process will go where the Dremel can't and remove stuff you never knew was there. Plus, the abrasive media will cut tiny longitudinal lines into whatver is being ported (intake, head, exhaust manifold, etc) which will actually promote airflow in that direction.

There is nothing that can substitute for Extrude Honing - to do a PROPER port job do the Dremel work first and THEN get the honing done. Works exponentially better with boosted and blown motors...there really is no substitute!!!

In the coming months I will keep everyone abreast of the progress - it will be a slow agonizing and tedious process, but bear with me - it will all pan out. If you do not want to wait and would like to see some ideas for a decent 5SFE portjob then I suggest visiting the MR2 forums and searching the posts. Mrturrari has some excellent insight into the 5SFE head and has outstanding pictures as well - I will be posting pics as the build progresses.
__________________
1996 Toyota Camry 5SFE 5-spd 329.9K - UNDER REPAIR
1997 Honda Civic 1.6 5-spd - 183K and 27 MPG average - Dependable DD and *small* family car
1991 Acura Integra 1.8 5-spd - 241K and 28MPG average - I'm game for a simple LS Vtec swap now...

Last edited by N/A Camry Sleeper; 10-10-2010 at 10:41 PM.
N/A Camry Sleeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-10-2010, 10:38 PM   #2 (permalink)
Operator / Diesel Tech
 
Mister_Perkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Tiona, PA
Posts: 4,090
Gameroom cash: $601601
Thanks: 26
Thanked 472 Times in 394 Posts
Lifetime Supreme Member
Garage
iTrader Score: 6 reviews
View Mister_Perkins's Photo Gallery
Very Cool, I was looking up aftermarket rods and $400.00 is a really good deal for rods. So with the adjustable cam setup is it still using just one cam gear spinning two camshafts or did someone figure out a way to run two separate camshafts ?

This post makes me want to spend a lot of money.. hehehe
Mister_Perkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2010, 10:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
I cheated with 7075 Al
 
N/A Camry Sleeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Memphis
Posts: 491
Gameroom cash: $161600
Thanks: 53
Thanked 43 Times in 27 Posts
Supreme Member
iTrader Score: 3 reviews
View N/A Camry Sleeper's Photo Gallery
I think it's independent gears - more info is on the MR2 forum, haven't found anyone here who's done it yet...
__________________
1996 Toyota Camry 5SFE 5-spd 329.9K - UNDER REPAIR
1997 Honda Civic 1.6 5-spd - 183K and 27 MPG average - Dependable DD and *small* family car
1991 Acura Integra 1.8 5-spd - 241K and 28MPG average - I'm game for a simple LS Vtec swap now...
N/A Camry Sleeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2010, 11:26 PM   #4 (permalink)
Freakin Scooters
 
LynchburgCSI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Richmond, VA & Lynchburg, VA
Posts: 10,388
Gameroom cash: $1409695
Thanks: 307
Thanked 411 Times in 383 Posts
Lifetime Supreme Member
Garage
iTrader Score: 16 reviews
View LynchburgCSI's Photo Gallery
Subscribed. Looks like you'll be doing this build the right way.
__________________

'07 Honda Ruckus Big Bore

TOTALED: '03 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer 4x4 5.4L, '96 Camry LE 5S
May '10: '11 Sienna V6 XLE FWD 8-pass. July '10: '06 Matrix XR Auto FWD Oct. '09: '05 RAV-4 L 4WD
LynchburgCSI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 06:49 AM   #5 (permalink)
I cheated with 7075 Al
 
N/A Camry Sleeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Memphis
Posts: 491
Gameroom cash: $161600
Thanks: 53
Thanked 43 Times in 27 Posts
Supreme Member
iTrader Score: 3 reviews
View N/A Camry Sleeper's Photo Gallery
The only thing I lament is the fact that its progress is directly proportional to any extra $$$ I have at the end of each pay period - which sometimes is a negative value!

Should be getting the crank back from NC in 2 or 3 weeks...Will be taking measurements and weighing it at that time...
__________________
1996 Toyota Camry 5SFE 5-spd 329.9K - UNDER REPAIR
1997 Honda Civic 1.6 5-spd - 183K and 27 MPG average - Dependable DD and *small* family car
1991 Acura Integra 1.8 5-spd - 241K and 28MPG average - I'm game for a simple LS Vtec swap now...
N/A Camry Sleeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 09:20 AM   #6 (permalink)
Official TN Member
 
quangtran89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 618
Thanks: 2
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
iTrader Score: 8 reviews
View quangtran89's Photo Gallery
Very nice! I had planned to do something like this to my Camry, but decided to take a different route. Good luck.
__________________



quangtran89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2010, 11:03 PM   #7 (permalink)
I cheated with 7075 Al
 
N/A Camry Sleeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Memphis
Posts: 491
Gameroom cash: $161600
Thanks: 53
Thanked 43 Times in 27 Posts
Supreme Member
iTrader Score: 3 reviews
View N/A Camry Sleeper's Photo Gallery
UPDATE 12-9-10

Will be selling the SBC Jet Ti rods but keeping the Ti valvetrain parts in light of recent crankshaft woes. Wossner makes a 12.4:1 piston for the 3SGE but the oversizes only go to 87mm. I need 87.5mm most likely for the new bore since I have not had blockwork done yet. If that doesn't work I will likely get a custom set from JE depending on their cost - the Wossner ones run $549 including pins, rings, and locks - not so bad...

I have decided to use aftermarket 5S rods with the 3/8 ARP rod bolts from this site:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=p5197.c0.m619

You can upgrade to higher-tensile strength L-19 bolts for only 3 British pounds per bolt . Don't know if I need that kind of tensile strength - only going to be pushing a little over 200 HP at best so probably not going to need those...

Hopefully the 2-3mm oversize valves with extensive deshrouding and port work will allow enough air into the chambers above 7500RPM - not really worried about the valvetrain >7500RPM it's more of the problem of moving air through the intake and head at those engine speeds which will be the challenge.

Once the bottom end is complete the REAL work begins - the head will prove to be the most rewarding component of the build if done correctly. I have plenty of patience for this and many references to draw from so the excitement is still present! Still looking at the end of 2011 or beginning of 2012 before completion and tuning, so plenty of time for ideas and suggestions.
__________________
1996 Toyota Camry 5SFE 5-spd 329.9K - UNDER REPAIR
1997 Honda Civic 1.6 5-spd - 183K and 27 MPG average - Dependable DD and *small* family car
1991 Acura Integra 1.8 5-spd - 241K and 28MPG average - I'm game for a simple LS Vtec swap now...
N/A Camry Sleeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2010, 11:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
One with the force
 
Bdub215's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia Pa
Posts: 1,445
Gameroom cash: $315565
Thanks: 5
Thanked 37 Times in 34 Posts
iTrader Score: 1 reviews
View Bdub215's Photo Gallery
im subscribing cuz i've seen some high reving 5sfe's and to be honest they dont look much faster then stock. the motor IS built for torque. i wanna see how this turns out
__________________
93 Lexus ES300 5spd I/E URSB

01 Toyota Avalon TFSB, Weapon-R
Bdub215 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2010, 09:51 AM   #9 (permalink)
Operator / Diesel Tech
 
Mister_Perkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Tiona, PA
Posts: 4,090
Gameroom cash: $601601
Thanks: 26
Thanked 472 Times in 394 Posts
Lifetime Supreme Member
Garage
iTrader Score: 6 reviews
View Mister_Perkins's Photo Gallery
$470.00 for 4 conrods is a great deal
__________________
AUTO to MANUAL Swap Guide (3rd Gen) - HERE
My sisters 96 camry progress: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/397691...ry-le-sedan-4d
Mister_Perkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2010, 09:11 PM   #10 (permalink)
I cheated with 7075 Al
 
N/A Camry Sleeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Memphis
Posts: 491
Gameroom cash: $161600
Thanks: 53
Thanked 43 Times in 27 Posts
Supreme Member
iTrader Score: 3 reviews
View N/A Camry Sleeper's Photo Gallery
OK - as luck or fate would have it - found some used Porsche Pankl Ti 996 custom rods which are *VERY* close to stock 5SFE rods. Here's a comparison between the two:

5SFE STOCKERS:

Center to center length = 5.433"
Big end bore = 2.166"
Big end thickness = 1.055"
Pin bore = .866"
Pin end thickness = 1.055"
Weight with bolts = 630 or 680g (I can't remember exactly)
Rod bolt diameter = 5/16" (.3125")

PORSCHE PANKL Ti 996:

Center to center length = 5.413"
Big end bore = 2.207"
Big end thickness = .861"
Pin bore = .748"
Pin end thickness = .861"
Weight with bolts = 357g (HOLY SCHNIT!!!!)
Rod bolt diameter = 9mm (.354")

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

So, with these Porsche rods I would only need a welded-then-offset ground crank journals (I could even add a little offset stroke instead of going the 1.9L route), and then shrink the rod journals to the .861" measurement. No destroking or any of that mondo-expensive stuff - still looking at a pretty penny for all of this, but the 357g WEIGHT MATCHED set of rods is almost 100g lighter than those SBC 6.000" rods I had originally planned on using...

Could make my own titanium wrist pins from readily available 3/4" Ti6Al4V bar stock and then send those off for DLC or Casidiam coating for less than half the price of having someone else do it. Would only have to mill .0015" off the bar stock to make it work. Then the difference in compression height could be made up using custom JE pistons - this is where I could possibly have a 2.3L 5SFE - Hmmm...

Suggestions anyone? Still not going to be a cheap route, but for N/A this should be an easier approach with the potential for MORE power - kinda glad in retrospect that I didn't finalize on the destroked build...
__________________
1996 Toyota Camry 5SFE 5-spd 329.9K - UNDER REPAIR
1997 Honda Civic 1.6 5-spd - 183K and 27 MPG average - Dependable DD and *small* family car
1991 Acura Integra 1.8 5-spd - 241K and 28MPG average - I'm game for a simple LS Vtec swap now...
N/A Camry Sleeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2010, 12:02 PM   #11 (permalink)
Operator / Diesel Tech
 
Mister_Perkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Tiona, PA
Posts: 4,090
Gameroom cash: $601601
Thanks: 26
Thanked 472 Times in 394 Posts
Lifetime Supreme Member
Garage
iTrader Score: 6 reviews
View Mister_Perkins's Photo Gallery
It probably would cost you about the same to just get custom rods for a price tag of 1,200.00.

I dunno, what happened to those connecting rods you had?
__________________
AUTO to MANUAL Swap Guide (3rd Gen) - HERE
My sisters 96 camry progress: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/397691...ry-le-sedan-4d
Mister_Perkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2010, 12:40 PM   #12 (permalink)
.
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Posts: 2,667
Gameroom cash: $368576
Thanks: 12
Thanked 39 Times in 36 Posts
Garage
iTrader Score: 15 reviews
View RichieRichJP's Photo Gallery
Just have ATS build you a 2.3L stroker block with custom non-turbo pistons.
You're making this so much more complicated.
And as posted above, the ARP rod bolts aren't going to save your connecting rods, its the thickness of the rods itself.
I'm pretty sure there's no room to get 2-3mm OS valves on the head also.
RichieRichJP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2010, 06:37 PM   #13 (permalink)
I cheated with 7075 Al
 
N/A Camry Sleeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Memphis
Posts: 491
Gameroom cash: $161600
Thanks: 53
Thanked 43 Times in 27 Posts
Supreme Member
iTrader Score: 3 reviews
View N/A Camry Sleeper's Photo Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichieRichJP View Post
Just have ATS build you a 2.3L stroker block with custom non-turbo pistons.
You're making this so much more complicated.
And as posted above, the ARP rod bolts aren't going to save your connecting rods, its the thickness of the rods itself.
I'm pretty sure there's no room to get 2-3mm OS valves on the head also.
I went to the ATS website: That's a nice idea but I don't see how they increased displacement. Boring out to an 88mm piston will take you from 2164cc stock 5SFE to only 2176cc - not much of a difference to claim 2.3L - if I were to stroke a 2.2L *lol* I would want to advertise the difference over stock...

So they want $3100 for that short block - since I'm already in the hole about a grand, it would seem logical to just say screw it and get the stroker, but there's no fun in that IMO! I have to scrutinize every part and every possibility - that's why at this point I haven't settled on a short block design. I like the stroker idea but for about the same money can take my time and make a bottom end which is better suited for everyday driving. Longer rods are a possibility for better rod ratio and better cylinder wall longevity, but there are tradeoffs with that, too.

Still kinda up-in-the-air at this point - $1200 for rods alone is borderline insane - but again tax time is pretty close...hmm, decisions decisions. Eagle rods are lighter than stock as well and possibly stronger than those Pankl ones, and cheaper...just thinking out loud at this point. Should decide on a game plan in the next 3-4 weeks; at that point I'll share the progress
__________________
1996 Toyota Camry 5SFE 5-spd 329.9K - UNDER REPAIR
1997 Honda Civic 1.6 5-spd - 183K and 27 MPG average - Dependable DD and *small* family car
1991 Acura Integra 1.8 5-spd - 241K and 28MPG average - I'm game for a simple LS Vtec swap now...
N/A Camry Sleeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2010, 09:55 PM   #14 (permalink)
New TN User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 35
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View 04yfz's Photo Gallery
Wow this looks awesome! Can't wait to see more progress, looking forward to it, subscribed.


Do you need wrist pin bushings for the rods? If so I have a brand new set I didn't use on my rebuild I'll sell cheap. Just thought I'd mention it lol.
04yfz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2010, 10:40 PM   #15 (permalink)
93 Camry LE 5S-FE
 
4Cyl'erThriller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Charm City, MD
Posts: 1,872
Gameroom cash: $428696
Thanks: 17
Thanked 50 Times in 48 Posts
Garage
iTrader Score: 15 reviews
View 4Cyl'erThriller's Photo Gallery
3rd Generation

This promises to be very interesting. Cant wait to see....
I love 5s-fe builds.
Good luck.
__________________
4Cyl'erThriller is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums > Toyota Passenger and Sports Car Forums > Camry and Solara Forum > 3rd & 4th Generation (1992–1996 & 1997–2001)

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:41 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.
ToyotaNation.com is an independent Toyota/Lexus enthusiast website. ToyotaNation.com is not sponsored by or in any way affiliated with Toyota Motor Sales, USA, Inc. The Toyota, Lexus and Scion names and logos are trademarks owned by Toyota Motor Sales, USA, Inc.