Transmission touble after torque converter seal replacement. Please advise!

[oxygen69]

Hi,
I've been searching though this forum for quite some time now and would appreciate some advice/troubleshooting on my current problem. If I missed anything please let me know. Sorry for the long post. ('95 Camry LE 2.2L 5S-FE)

Recently, I just had a bad "head gasket" as I kept overheating the engine. I knew I needed a new "Rear main seal" and "torque converter seal" (from a prior safety inspection several years ago). So, I decided to pull the engine out and work on it myself at my girlfriends farm. This took some time for only myself, as it is very dusty there. Since, I had previously had a bad oil leak (bad o-ring on pump), which I repaired this spring myself, the engine was in filthy shape, so it took me longer as I cleaned all the parts up as I disassembled and reassembled the engine, while replacing the head gasket. (I will note this was my first engine "Rebuild" and I did it myself with only reading this forum and a ninja manual on the camry.) I also cleaned off as much carbon deposits I could see and replaced many hoses. Check parts also like the distributor and such.

Next, I went to deal with the Rear seal & torque converter seal by disconnecting the transmission. I followed the manual to the tee and never had any problems with the rear main seal. However, I could find absolutely NO info on the torque converter seal and replacing it. So I did my best to figure out how to do it. I finally ended up removing the trans pump disassembling it and "pushing out the old seal with a screwdriver. Then tapping in a new seal. Everything seemed to go ok, accept when I pulled out the pump I did seem to slightly bump (or move off kilter) the Direct Clutch (top/first pack) - however I made sure it was seated back when I re-installed the pump. Mind you, I had just moved it maybe 1/4" off and I just pushed it back and it fell into place. I made sure the torque converter was pushed as far into the trany as I could get it, and I even put extra fluid in it in case any drained out. It was taken off with the transmission, but removed to take out the pump.

Everything went ok as I reassembled and reinstalled the engine. However, this was a long process for me as I had to use a Skid Steer (like a bobcat) to remove and install the engine. Like I said, on a farm.

Anyways, after I started the engine it ran perfectly! I took the car out for quick slow drive down the street and the transmission started to die on the way back. I would go, then stop, turn off car, wait, then I could go a couple blocks more. Looking back 3rd was slipping badly. I originally thought I had put the oil pump in wrong or assembled it to tight, but after many days of troubleshooting the transmission I build a pressure tester and figured out how to test the oil pressure. It was ok. In the process of troubleshooting I also drained fluid several times, replaced trans filter. Looked for code, ect. One main thing tho.. I had NO REVERSE now. But after changing all the fluids and futzing with it, the car would now drive forward and not die. So I am left here and these are my test results so far.
---
I have NO REVERSE unless the engine/fluid is cold or has been sitting a long time, then I can just slightly get it to go backwards.

Troubleshooting results:
Lock-up & shift-down:
O/D on:
R (R) - Will only go slightly in reverse after engine has set and fluids are cold/thick. After warm-up, rev all you want however, it isn’t going anywhere.

L (1) - Stays in 1st gear no matter what. Engine brakes excellently.
Max RPM = beginning “Red-line” if held long enough. [within specs]

2nd (1-2) - lockup at (39mph). [within specs]
2nd (2) - Engine breaks excellently. [within specs]

D (2-3) - lockup – doesn’t happen full throttle
Will shift into 3rd after accelerator peddle let up let up about half way.
D (3) - Slips into 2nd too easily when given some throttle.

O/D(4) Downshifts to 3rd at highways speeds and slips from 3rd to 2nd when,
0 throttle and O/D button turned OFF, then accelerator pressed slightly. Seems that it never really is locking up into O/D. Very hard to tell if ever in O/D however see below.

Manual shift into 2nd from 3rd (3-2) - downshifts at (68 mph).
Manual shift into 1st from 2nd (2-1) – downshifts at (33 mph).

Stays in 3rd @ 4000 rpm 70 mph in cruise control, no O/D seems to happen.
O/D will downshift to 3rd approx 2250 rpm (no throttle, then some). Happened 1 or 2 times.
----------------------------------------------------
Solenoid Disconnected Test:
1 - 1st gear works fine.
2 - 3rd gear seems to drive ok.
D - O/D ???. (Appears to actually be in 3rd as 4000 rpm at 70 mph).
R - R doesn’t move!
P - Park works fine.
----------------------------------------------------
Hydraulic Pressure Test: [all within specs]
Drive (D)
Idle pressure – (52-54 psi)
Stall pressure – (120 psi)
Reverse (R)
Idle - (96-102 psi)
Stall - (200+ psi)
-----------------------------------------------------
RPM Test: [R Stall bad]
Drive (D)
Idle - (750 rpm)
Stall - (2500 rpm)
Reverse (R)
Idle - (850-900 rpm)
Stall - (5000+ rpm)
------------------------------------------------------
Bump Test:
Drive (D) >1.2s (less than 1.2 seconds.)
Reverse (R) Not really a bump at all but if I try very carefully I can feel barley noticeable nudge. >1.5s (less than 1.5 seconds.)
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I have tried changing the throttle cable, and 3rd still won't lockup at full throttle. I get no codes (I even did a "Test Mode" ECU diag). Dex II-III / Valvoline Maxlife ATF in currently, and it seems better with that, than using the crappy generic Dex II I had started with. Did have a lot of metal shavings when dropped pan. Most were magnetic/steal, but there were a fair number of light brass colored ones in the drained fluid too.

My diagnosis:
Probable Cause:
Since Reverse not working, 3rd slips, and O/D issue, only thing that seems to be in common is the Direct Clutch.

Bad part: Direct Clutch (C2) - a plate or clutch in there somewhere?

Would anyone know if this sound correct, or are there 2 thing I should have to replace? Also, any idea's of what inside (plates) that will need replacement? I would like to buy the parts (local or online) before I remove the transmission if possible. Make a "best guess" of what I need since I am going to get some help this time since it is now cold here in Wisconsin, and I don't want to remove the engine (as that really is not as easy as some people have said it was). I broke other things and had to replace them/fix them when doing that on an older car.

Thanks much!

Oxygen

[Mister_Perkins]

sounds about right. You said that you bumped the direct clutch too. Everything has to be set in the transmission exactly. There's no room for guessing. "Not trying to be a dick"

I have a question though. If you were replacing your torque converter seal, Why did you pull the case apart?

I had a problem with my Accord transmission when I changed the synchros. It wouldn't go into reverse. I pulled the case apart three times. The third time I realized the reverse synchro ring on the top wasn't lined up correctly. I pulled it apart, rotated it to the correct position, re-installed the case and transmission into the car and presto. Reverse worked again.

I think there isn't a problem with the direct clutch to tell you the truth. Your getting a good amount of pressure, your clutch is probably just not installed correctly and isn't engaging in reverse.

Keep in mind, while in reverse your car should have the most pressure

[oxygen69]

I pulled the pump out because I could not figure out how the torque converter seal came out for the life of me. I am not a car expert by any means, and I just try my best to fix with manuals. I had no info on the seal removal tho. I can usually fix just about anything given the right directions. I saw the metal ring and orange seal and thought that the ring was around the seal. I started to (stupidly) dig-out the orange, finally realizing that the whole thing was the seal. My new seal was just all rubber, so it confused me. Later I decided to take a look from the back side because what I was doing wasn't working. Then I figured out that the metal too was the seal.

Here are some pics:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rtkamhol...yEngineRepair#

So I did have quite a bit of filings in there.. You don't think that is a problem.. I could see if I just screwed something up. (always possible) I was trying not to move anything inside since I never had a manual for the A140E. I could have put it back wrong though. But if I open it up to fix it, is it worth replacing some of the parts then anyways? It had 186K on it..

Thanks.. and I don't think your comment was "being a dick." I am a starting chemist and I know how things have to be exact..

[Mister_Perkins]

Originally Posted by oxygen69

I pulled the pump out because I could not figure out how the torque converter seal came out for the life of me. I am not a car expert by any means, and I just try my best to fix with manuals. I had no info on the seal removal tho. I can usually fix just about anything given the right directions. I saw the metal ring and orange seal and thought that the ring was around the seal. I started to (stupidly) dig-out the orange, finally realizing that the whole thing was the seal. My new seal was just all rubber, so it confused me. Later I decided to take a look from the back side because what I was doing wasn't working. Then I figured out that the metal too was the seal.

Here are some pics:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rtkamhol...yEngineRepair#

So I did have quite a bit of filings in there.. You don't think that is a problem.. I could see if I just screwed something up. (always possible) I was trying not to move anything inside since I never had a manual for the A140E. I could have put it back wrong though. But if I open it up to fix it, is it worth replacing some of the parts then anyways? It had 186K on it..

Thanks.. and I don't think your comment was "being a dick." I am a starting chemist and I know how things have to be exact..

Yeah metal shavings are definitely not a good sign. Since its steel its probably bearings, gears or plate wear.

If it was non-magnetic, it would be bushing wear. (Brass)


Sounds like it's time for a rebuild.

Heres a useful link to help you out

http://www.camryforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18136

If your pulling it apart, you might as well replace all of your gears through the whole transmission, new differential bearings and also change out the solenoids and filter too.

Good luck and feel free to PM me or Message me on the forums for further assistance

Brandon

Addition:

After rebuilding you will likely have more invested than the transmission costs. You may want to look into getting a used transmission with lower miles online or at a salvage yard. But there you always risk getting a dud that has problems too. Just something to keep in mind.

[deadrx7conv]

Metal wear looks normal on the magnets for a >100k transmission.

When working on trans, the input shaft should be vertical. Sideways is a big no no.

Double check the ATF level on a level surface, with vehicle running, while in park. If no luck, pull the trans out again.

[Mister_Perkins]

Originally Posted by deadrx7conv

Metal wear looks normal on the magnets for a >100k transmission.

When working on trans, the input shaft should be vertical. Sideways is a big no no.

Double check the ATF level on a level surface, with vehicle running, while in park. If no luck, pull the trans out again.

Very true.. Sideways and everything will fall to one side. It could be as simple as one of your rings fell off center and isn't aligned anymore. If you pull everything out and keep it in-order you could try putting it back together stacking everything nicely and see if the problem is resolved.

You usually do see some metal wear over 100k so RX is right saying that its normal.. because it is.

If I were you I would try pulling it back apart and putting it back together.

Quick question that i never asked, and probably should have.

Did you have any transmission problems prior to working on the vehicle??

[oxygen69]

Nope. No transmission trouble before.. So, I figured it was either from the draining the ATF or my fault somehow. One thing to note was that it did shudder for a while when I tried to use reverse, but after putting in the MaxLife ATF, some Seafoam Transmission, changing the filter, and a few more drains it went away. I am thinking your right that a ring is misaligned. I do remember a ring being out of place however I thought I had centered it. If you look at the photo carefully you might be able to see it.

Done the check of fluid 20+ times now and am certain that's not the problem. Plus, I built a pressure tester to use and as you can see the idle drive pressure gauge was within specs (54psi).

One question regarding the pressure tester tho: I used a (M8 x 20mm Pitch 1.00) bolt and drilled a hole down the middle, oxy-welded a connector and screwed a tube and pressure guage on it. But I noticed that while I seemed to have a very close thread pitch, I wonder if there is a really odd screw in there as the plug. I might want to re-tap it after I'm done and just was wondering if anyone would know the correct tap to do that. (if my bolt was wrong in the specs).

Yes, I now know not to pull the pump (now) when it is sideways. I didn't have directions and didn't think the packs were so loose as they would move.. I have changed a manual clutch in a '03 Nissan Altima SE 3.0L before myself, and things were all solid & bolted in. My error. Newbie error I guess.

I think I'll pull the engine, see what's up, and possibly replace worn parts. Thanks for the rebuild link. I saw that a while back and it helped me know how to take the pump out (all accept for the horizontal removal).. I don't want to do a total rebuild yet, as this will be the first time I touch the insides of the tranny.. (Well kind of) I would like a little more experience before I change out everything.

Can anyone recommend a good manual (possibly online PDF and FREE) for all the steps and specs? Also, I know of the rebuild links part store, but are there any others that are good?

Thanks!

[Mister_Perkins]

hehehe its all good man. It happens. There really isn't any information online that shows how to pull it apart besides replacing the torque converter Which isnt even internal really.

I don't know of any repair manuals available online that list the internal locations (DIY). They show locations of the parts, but do not list in a DIY manner how to install or remove them.

If you pull those gears out in order and reinstall them in reverse order you should be Ok. Just inspect each piece before you put it in for excessive wear.

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