What is your opinion of NTB? Motor swap?

[haux]

Well, I guess it's about time anyway.

To start, I'm an idiot. Recently I posted about how my radiator was leaking. I had been putting off buying a new one, and topping off the reservoir with distilled water. It would have been too expensive to keep adding antifreeze. Well, one day recently... the temperature dropped down well below freezing... and then the obvious happened. I didn't realize it was so cold out, and drove to the store. On the way back, the car stalled. Freezing water expanded and busted a hose. When the engine warmed up and melted the ice in the cooling system, the water poured out of that hose. The engine stalled on the way back from overheating.

A couple of days ago I checked the oil, and it was the color of a coffee/milk mixture. As far as I am aware, this is what oil looks like when mixed with water. My assumption is that the headgasket is bad, and the shop (National Tire & Battery) I took the car to said the same thing.

Before I asked them to look at the oil, they were wanting to just replace the radiator, thermostat, and the lower hose that broke. After they looked at the oil, he said it was not worth paying them to replace the headgasket on a motor with so many miles, given that it will cost approx. the same as swapping the motor entirely. I agree with that...

The pricing is as follows:
$149.99 Radiator
$15.61 Thermostat
$29.99 (x2, = $59.98) Lower/Upper hose
$640.00 Used Motor
/10th Hour Labor $9.30 (x40, = $372)
$19.99 Oil Change w/ Filter
$3.00 HAZMAT disposal charge

Total $1,260.57
Shop Fee $35.00
Tax $55.42
---
Total Net Amount $1,350.99

I don't know why the upper rad. hose is in this list... nothing is wrong with it, and I replaced it this year. I'll be getting that one removed from the list. And the /10th hour labor x40 would be 4 hours of labor. He said it will likely take 5, but he's charging me for 4. Even 5 hours to replace a motor doesn't seem like long enough to me...

He told me that all used motors they put in will have under 150,000 miles on them. And he seemed confident that he can find one with around 80k miles.

If I go through with this, I will require that they let me inspect for sludge under the valve cover of the used motor, prior to installation.

So that's the story... now here are my questions...

1) Could the freezing water have damaged the headgasket?

2) If not, could it have caused other internal damage that is causing water to leek into the oil?

3) Is there any other reason that water could have found it's way into the oil?

4) What are you opinions of NTB?


As far as I am aware... they performed no tests to confirm the damaged headgasket. So I would really like to know if there is any other reason why could have made its way into the oil. If not, then performing additional tests will be a waste of money.


EDIT: I forgot to add... I am out of town (around Atlanta) on work. This vehicle is my only transportation. It must be in working order. ...for those of you who might start saying how it's not worth spending so much money on a car this old. My options are limited.

[96ToyoCam164K]

4. National TIRE and BATTERY. Even though I buy my tires from Firestone because I trust them with tires, I personally wouldn't go to any chain to have engine stuff done. I would look for a specialized Toyota/Honda/Japan mechanic.

Now, you say the oil looks milky...when was the last time it was changed? It could have simply been a coolant leak into the oil. I was trying to find the website I was looking at once. But I believe what you can do to test the oil is to place a drop from your dipstick into a cup of water. If the oil spreads out, there's water. If it turns into a nice little bubble, its fine.

Now you say overheating...did it go all the way up to the top of the thermometer?

[Mister_Perkins]

Originally Posted by haux

1) Could the freezing water have damaged the headgasket?

DEFINITELY!


2) If not, could it have caused other internal damage that is causing water to leek into the oil?

Water leaking into the oil sounds like a water jacket inside the motor cracked from the expanding water possibly

3) Is there any other reason that water could have found it's way into the oil?

See above

4) What are you opinions of NTB?

10 hours labor sounds a little extreme. I can have the 5sfe motor in and out in 4 hours and running by 5. If they are experience mechanics they should be able to do it in the same amount of time .. Or less time


As far as I am aware... they performed no tests to confirm the damaged headgasket. So I would really like to know if there is any other reason why could have made its way into the oil. If not, then performing additional tests will be a waste of money.

I honestly think more than just the head gasket is bad

.. As far as pricing goes other than the labor. $640.00 is to be expected. A few years ago the camrys weren't really super popular. Something happened and now they are very popular. i remember 2 or 3 years ago I got a motor and it cost me $300.00 So in 2 or 3 years the price doubled.

The radiator is very expensive too. you can get a good one used at a salvage yard for way cheaper. If anything, I have a good condition A/T 5sfe Radiator in my 93 if you cant find one cheap.

Hoses - Get them from a salvage yard

Thermostat - Sounds about right

Oil change / filter - Sounds about right. Actually cheaper than most places by $5.00

[haux]

Originally Posted by 96ToyoCam164K

4. National TIRE and BATTERY. Even though I buy my tires from Firestone because I trust them with tires, I personally wouldn't go to any chain to have engine stuff done. I would look for a specialized Toyota/Honda/Japan mechanic.

Now, you say the oil looks milky...when was the last time it was changed? It could have simply been a coolant leak into the oil. I was trying to find the website I was looking at once. But I believe what you can do to test the oil is to place a drop from your dipstick into a cup of water. If the oil spreads out, there's water. If it turns into a nice little bubble, its fine.

Now you say overheating...did it go all the way up to the top of the thermometer?

The guy was pointing out to me how they were currently doing two motor swaps the day I came in... I guess to put me at ease about their abilities with such work. I'm strapped for time, and my capability to "shop around" is limited... given that I have no transportation.


I am past due for an oil change. I would say there is maybe 6-7,000 miles on the oil currently in there. You say... "simply been a coolant leak into the oil." That's exactly the problem. Coolant (in this case, water, no antifeeze) has leaked into the oil. How else could I have gotten in there if not via a bad headgasket or other internal damage?


I said it overheated because that is the only explanation I could think of why it stalled on the way back from where I was going. Like stated in the original post, my theory is that the lower hose initially broke from the expanding coolant (water). When I went on the drive, the ice closer to the motor melted, and poured out of the broken hose. This means, there was NO coolant circulation, and no coolant in the motor. As far as I am aware, the temperature sensor works off of the temperature of the coolant circulating near the motor. There was no coolant there, so the temp gauge did not go above normal.


I suppose I could be incorrect about this theory.

[haux]

Originally Posted by Mister_Perkins

10 hours labor sounds a little extreme. I can have the 5sfe motor in and out in 4 hours and running by 5. If they are experience mechanics they should be able to do it in the same amount of time .. Or less time

Sorry, maybe I didn't explain it correctly. Their labor pricing is per TENTH of an hour, not ten hours. The charge will be 40 tenths of an hour... which is the same as saying 4 hours. It's very strange, I agree. But I suppose it could be better for a customer this way. Most places will charge per half hour, while this sort of pricing is much more specific.

So to clarify, they are charging for 40 tenths of an hour, at a price of $9.30 per tenth. So that's $93.00 per hour, for 4 hours.


I can get a brand new OEM radiator from a dealer 1 hour away for less than $150. The problem is... I have no way of getting there.

[Mister_Perkins]

ahh i see. Well thats actually not bad $93.00 in labor. Your lucky your only paying $9.30 / hr. Most shops charge $30-$35.00 and at dealer its more like $100/hr.

[LittleWhiteBubble]

He wouldn't be paying 9.30 an hour, its 93 dollars per hour, at 4 hours thats just under 400 dollars.... which personally I think is a little high. My mechanic only charges around 80 an hour and I trust him more than any chain automotive place.

[Mister_Perkins]

holy crap, you guys pay a lot for a mechanic

[LynchburgCSI]

NTB = Tires ONLY. I hate them....

[Mister_Perkins]

Originally Posted by LynchburgCSI

NTB = Tires ONLY. I hate them....

you sound very serious about this

[jtex2717]

I pay my mechanic about = 3 beers/ hr

Oh yeah....my mechanic is me....

Anyways Haux....Talk to the owner and mechanics a bit more....get to trust them....ask them questions like, "what's the best price you can do?" I wouldnt get radiator hoses from a junk yard...too risky.... I would say if you can find an autozone or equivilant within your access range, get the little parts from there. Only, dont cheap out on your T-stat. That's something you might regret in the future....anyways.....good luck and takl talk talk....the more you talk, the better it is for you...i like this quote from the movie Happy Feet....."Can I appeal to your better nature?"

[Mike Gerber]

You are in a difficult situation here. Since you are far away from home, shopping around is almost impossible. Although not my first choice for this kind of work, you might be best at a national chain store, since they probably give a nationwide warranty. Ask them about a nationwide warranty first. I would also call the local Better Business Bureau and see if you can check up on this local NTB with them. They might have a rating for them and a list of some complaints, if any.

Good luck.

Mike

[haux]

So I went down there to see the car. I drove the car next door to AutoZone. My plan was to replace whatever hose was leaking, replace the thermostat, change the oil... and confirm that there is indeed a constant leak of water into the oil, before committing to such an expensive repair.

I hit a dead end when I was trying to figure out where the water was leaking from. If I pour water into the upper radiator hose, it pours straight onto the ground. I could not find where the leak was; I could only see it coming down from between the right half-shaft and the oil pan. I don't believe there are coolant hoses anywhere near there. Could there be a big crack there from where the water froze and expanded?

The upper and lower rad hoses are fine. I'll have them remove those two items from the list. I replaced them earlier this year anyway, so they are virtually brand new.

I'm heading down there first thing in the morning to get this started. I can't wait any longer. If they can find a motor that morning, they could very well start on it the same day.

They do not have a profile online with the BBB, and they have one review on yelp.com with 5 stars. The manager I spoke with initially seemed like he knew what he was doing. But I will talk with him a LOT more before the swap begins. I have never dealt with NTB in the past.

And, the new motor will come with a 12 month / 12,000 mile warranty. I have to admit... 12k miles is nothing. Is this type of warranty typical on a used swap?


EDIT: There was a bit of yellow gunk inside of the oil cap. When I say yellow, I don't mean dull off-yellow nearly brown... but, almost crayon yellow, just maybe not so bright. Any ideas what that could be? It seems quite unusual to find something like that in an oil cap...

[haux]

Originally Posted by Mike Gerber

You are in a difficult situation here. Since you are far away from home, shopping around is almost impossible. Although not my first choice for this kind of work, you might be best at a national chain store since store, since they probably give a nationwide warranty. Ask them about a nationwide warranty first. I would also call the local Better Business Bureau and see if you can check up on this local NTB with them. They might have a rating for them and a list of some complaints, if any.

Good luck.

Mike

The warranty is 12mo/12k miles. I assumed it's valid at any NTB location, but I will ask to make sure.

If I call the BBB, would they have any information that their website doesn't? Because this location does not have a profile on their website.

[zythr]

Originally Posted by LittleWhiteBubble

He wouldn't be paying 9.30 an hour, its 93 dollars per hour, at 4 hours thats just under 400 dollars.... which personally I think is a little high. My mechanic only charges around 80 an hour and I trust him more than any chain automotive place.

But you're in a different state, and maybe your mechanic has more competition then the one the OP wants to go to.