O/D & 3rd not locking-up in transmission?

[oxygen69]

Hi,
In the following thread for a '95 Camry 5s-fe (A140E) 2.2L:

Transmission touble after torque converter seal replacement. Please advise!

I had some transmission trouble after fixing a seal. Well I got the transmission out looked through it and sure enough the Direct clutch was all messed up.
-I replaced all bands and steels in it and in the forward clutch (for good measure).
-Looked at everything I could get at while having the pump pulled and the rest seemed ok. I did seem to have some ground up stuff (probably the "bare" direct clutch discs I replaced), but I cleaned all that out..
-Have transmission in car, but am still having some of the same issues I had before, just the reverse works somewhat better however not great.

So here are my "really weird" current issues:
-No lock-up in 3rd or O/D.
-With O/D switch OFF 3rd will not lockup, but will switch into gear if either throttle is almost closed or...turn OD switch on.
-With O/D switch ON 3rd WILL lockup, but 4th(O/D) will NOT lockup?? But can feel it try to kick in, but seems to just come out with throttle.
-Reverse is still not very good once the car warms up. When fluid is cold it works great.


Diag so far:
-1st and 2nd (full throttle) tests seem to be all within specs.
-Manual shift into 2nd from 3rd (3-2) - downshifts at (68 mph).
-Manual shift into 1st from 2nd (2-1) – downshifts at (33 mph).
-Manual shift into 2nd from 1st (1-2) – upshifts at (39 mph).

-3rd gear will NOT lockup full throttle in (D). O/D switch on. Goes up to 6000+ RPM. Let off gas, lockup occurs.
-O/D will not lockup at all, but car does get into gear at times however won't stay.

No slipping or grinding noticed on any gear.

Bump test: OK when fluid is cold. Reverse is slow when fluid hot.

Solenoid 1: (12.4 ohms) Measured inside when fixed.
Solenoid 2: (12.5 ohms) Measured inside when fixed.

Hydraulic Pressure Test:
Drive (D)
Idle pressure – (52-54 psi)
Stall pressure – (120 psi)
Reverse (R)
Idle - (96-102 psi)
Stall - (200+ psi)

Throttle Sensor Test- was (0.99v-8.1v)...fixed by rotating counter clockwise now reads (0.1v-8.1v)

Engine Coolant Sensor & circuit all test out OK.

Hot: (0.2k ohms) Cold: (5.4k ohms), Hot: (0.4v) Cold: (3.5v)

Stop Light Switch tests out OK.
Pressed: (0v) , Released: (8.1v)

Speed Sensor Test- ok

Fluids have been flushed several times now.

Anyone have any idea's as to what would allow 3rd to lockup with OD switch ON and not when off? Also, why would cold fluid work better than the hot fluid?

One I thing I thought was maybe I had a plug in the valve body somewhere or something sticking.. Like the Lockup valve???

Any idea's are greatly appreciated.. I still have to do some of the other diags on the checklist, but thought I would see if anyone had any idea..

Thanks much!

Oxygen

[Mister_Perkins]

Shift Lock Solenoid, Connected behind the NSS on the left side. One wire connector.

Specs: 11-14Ohms of resistance between pin and motor (ground)

Apply 12V+ To Solenoid and confirm its working properly.

You Tube

You Tube

[oxygen69]

Ok.. Thanks.. Will give that a try and see what comes out..

[oxygen69]

Tested.. 13.1 Ohms and 12+ v does make a clicking sound.

Solenoid disconnect test: -seems that D is actually 3rd gear.. example:
(L): 4000 rpm @ 29 mph (1st gear)
(2): 4000 rpm @ 50 mph (supposed to be 3rd gear)
(D): 4000 rpm @ 68 mph (supposed to be 4th/OD gear)

[Stillrunning]

From what I've been able to research in my FSM (having no internal trans experience) "No Lock-up" needs to be determined to be either electrical or mechanical. Most of your tests show no electrical problems; SL shift solenoid, TPS, VSS, etc. and your pressures seem ok. The SL shift solenoid however engages the lock-up relay valve in the valve body, so the solenoid can work but the relay valve may not. The other area listed as possible no lock-up is the torque converter clutch, only fixable with the trans out of the vehicle. I would disconnect the two solenoids from the trans (just behind the neutral safety switch) then shift manually from L to 2 to D and if you still get no lock-up then it's mechanical; torque converter clutch or lock-up relay, or so it seems from my research. Hopefully some one with internal trans knowledge and repair can also help, but your fix attempts/diagnosis so far have been first rate.

[Mister_Perkins]

If you have the same repair manual I have, Check out pages 66-73 on A140E

Page 66 shows what Pins on the ECU Do what for the transmission, what resistances each should have. Then 69-73 is a Matrix chart to help narrow down the problem. I would test the ECU first and make sure everything is working correctly

If the ECU is working correctly, I would look into testing valve bodies 1-2, 2-3.. if Valve bodies 1-2, 2-3 are bad, it will cause the vehicle to not move in Reverse. Could be something as simple as a leaky seal not being able to create enough pressure when in reverse.

No upshift to overdrive would indicate 3-4 Shift solenoid valves.

Reverse could also be linked to Co O/D Direct clutch, and C. Direct Clutch. Since you had it repaired though, I'm thinking the C Direct clutch may be alright.
Another thing that could be related to Reverse not working great could be C. Forward Clutch. I actually suspect more the valve bodies rather than the clutches though because you said if the fluid was cold it would work fine.

Lock-up problem could also be related to Torque Converter clutch


----

like i said though, I would test the ECU to make sure it is working right. That will let you know right away if the computer is suspect and its not related to anything with the transmission.

Also, I found a really good repair manual for the A140E . PM Me if your interested

[oxygen69]

Ya, thanks.. I think i'll check the total ecu. I have a feeling though it is probably something in the valve body.. (preferably, than the Torque converter).. at least I can repair a valve body without removing the whole darn transmission AGAIN!

I wouldn't be surprised to open the valve body up and find small metal fragments lodged places.. maybe torn seals too.. THe direct clutch lost a lot of friction pad stuff and that could plug up those little tubes..

Thanks everyone.. I'll see what I can find!

Oxy

[Mister_Perkins]

Originally Posted by oxygen69

Ya, thanks.. I think i'll check the total ecu. I have a feeling though it is probably something in the valve body.. (preferably, than the Torque converter).. at least I can repair a valve body without removing the whole darn transmission AGAIN!

I wouldn't be surprised to open the valve body up and find small metal fragments lodged places.. maybe torn seals too.. THe direct clutch lost a lot of friction pad stuff and that could plug up those little tubes..

Thanks everyone.. I'll see what I can find!

Oxy

Sounds good. If your valve body ends up not being good, I have a spare A140E with good valve bodies

[oxygen69]

Well, I finally changed the ECU with a good ECU from a working car and it didn't fix the problem. I have also now dropped the valve body on the transmission and cleaned out some serious chunks of friction ring stuff, taken apart cleaned and reinstalled the valve body in the car, but I still have the same issue.

Just to refresh:
Transmission trouble after rebuilt engine.. Car won't lockup in 3rd or OD, but will go into 3rd when OD button is pushed on. Reverse is bad unless the fluid is cold, then it moves back fine.

I thought it was the valve body stuck somewhere, and I really did clean crap out (that I thought was causing my trouble, but while it does work a little better (maybe) it is still a problem.

Originally had checked all the electronics, but I am not still thinking the OD & reverse may be separate issues. This was all after I fixed the Direct clutch myself when I messed it up changing the Torque converter seal. Reminder that all these problems happen AFTER I first fixed the engine, and never got back to normal after that. But I did put in all new friction plates and steels after I discovered this problem.. Originally that helped reverse some but never did anything for lockup.

I am really at a loss as to what to do now.. OK.. lets think about this:

1) What can cause a transmission to go in reverse when cold just fine, but not when is it Hot??

2) What can make the transmission lockup to 3rd when the OD switch is pushed, but not lockup into OD?? (I know SL Solenoid can sometimes do this)

3) What would make the tach bounce from 1250-1750rpm when the car "really wants" to stay in 3rd but doesn't "lockup" to allow it to stay there, while I hold the gas pedal steady. It's almost like it wants to switch gears, but cannot hold?

See above for all test results as I don;t want to type them all out again.
Solenoid 1 & 2 tests: 12.6 ohms (from inside the transmission yesterday.

Anyone have any good idea's - please..

I almost think something electronic might be doing this as it is strange, but the diag process says probably mechanical??

Oxygen

[oxygen69]

Originally Posted by Mister_Perkins

I would look into testing valve bodies 1-2, 2-3.. if Valve bodies 1-2, 2-3 are bad, it will cause the vehicle to not move in Reverse. Could be something as simple as a leaky seal not being able to create enough pressure when in reverse.

No upshift to overdrive would indicate 3-4 Shift solenoid valves.

Reverse could also be linked to Co O/D Direct clutch, and C. Direct Clutch. Since you had it repaired though, I'm thinking the C Direct clutch may be alright.
Another thing that could be related to Reverse not working great could be C. Forward Clutch. I actually suspect more the valve bodies rather than the clutches though because you said if the fluid was cold it would work fine.
Also, I found a really good repair manual for the A140E . PM Me if your interested

How about do I test the valve body exactly?? Like I said I cleaned everything out. It was in pretty bad shape as far as gaskets braking though on the main one. It would crack just from old age, but I wonder if that is truly would be the main cause. All the major things I thought looked good.

Does anyone know if there is a diagram out there of EXACTLY how and where the fluids go on the A140E transmission, in case something else was plugged and I didn't find it? I have the main manuals (camry & transmission, and a ATSC for the A140E), but not much on exact fluid flows of the valve body or inside the transmission itself..

Oxygen

[dem2757]

my .02 cents from the 2nd gen.

i have the A540E transmission, and that thing is INCREDIBLY picky with fluid levels. have you gotten your fluid level exactly in the middle of the hot marks when it is hot? (20-30 minutes of driving gets it proper temperature)

reverse in the A540E and A140E was controlled by the overdrive/ first gear clutch. if that was going, it most likely is the torque converter overdrive unit.

[oxygen69]

Ya, fluid is picky I noticed, but seems not to be the problem.. It is usually about 3/4 up from bottom of hot so within range. Not sure what you are referring to exactly with torque converter overdrive unit? Do you mean the SL solenoid? (lockup solenoid)

Also reverse is controlled by (Co)O/D direct clutch, (C2)Direct Clutch, & (B3)First and reverse brake. First and reverse brake fine since L works great, O/D direct clutch must be fine if works in 1st and 2nd, & I rebuilt/replaced Direct clutch when I ground up the thing after pulling out the trans pump when I worked on it and improperly reinstalled it back in previously. I checked down to I found the bent friction discs and friction material wended inside, but cleaned all that up. (see beginning of post)..

I am definitely going to replace the SL Solenoid, but would that really make reverse a problem too then?