Question about speakers for the car audio mavens out there

[BMR]

I'm considering upgrading the sound system in my ol' Camry and looking for some advice. But first some info on what I've got and the sound I'm looking for.

The speakers are all stock; it has the 4 speaker setup, not the optional 6(?) speaker system with the discrete tweeters. I replaced the head unit a few years back with a Clarion DXZ645MP (link to specs) because I wanted to be able to play music CDs and MP3s burned onto CDROMs. Currently, 95% of the time I use my iPod which is plugged into the rear aux input. I'm happy with that head unit. But the sound from the stock speakers is a bit flat and lifeless. Not offensively crappy, but not awe inspiring either.

In my opinion, based on my experience with my home audio systems and upgrading a half dozen or so car systems, the choice of speakers largely determines the quality of the sound, unless the head unit and the amp are *really* turds. So I don't *think* I need to upgrade there. Most of the time I listen at moderate volume levels (my wife would disagree), but occasionally I'll crank it up so the cannons in Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture will make the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

So I'm looking for some advice on speakers. I realize audio quality is highly subjective. But I want accuracy, clarity, and presence. I absolutely hate muddy, booming one-note bass. I'd rather have no bass than that crappy sound. I'm a huge fan of the sound of the old Acoustic Research home speakers (don't think they ever made car stuff). I like the tight, clean bass that their air suspension design delivers. I rarely like speakers with tuned port bass designs. The downside to air suspension is that they're usually inefficient, requiring considerably more power for equivalent volumes.

Budget?... I dunno. Certainly less than a grand. I'm thinking $500-ish.

So here's a few questions:
1) Brands to consider or avoid?
2) Separate subwoofer/amp req'd to get the bass I want? I have a woofer (8" Rockford Fosgate???... I can check when I get home) that I bought at Best Buy about 8 years ago on their close-out table, but never did anything with it. IIRC, it cost like $80, half-off. So it's probably not a POS? I'm thinking I could fab an enclosure for it and put it in the trunk?

BTW, I consider myself competent when it comes to mounting speakers that are a different size than stock. So if the space is there, I can probably come up with a way to mount them. So don't limit your recommendations to the stock sizes. OTOH, I'd rather not hack new openings in the door panels or the rear deck because if I put together something I love, I'd like to be able to take it out and move it into my next car without leaving gaping holes.

TIA,
BMR

[ariel_86]

I see some conflicting statements in your post. You want good sounds, but aren't willing to make the modifications necessary for tweeters. Maybe look into getting an extra set of door panels that you can cut into to add tweeters, then replace with the original ones if you remove the system?

Regarding speakers, I feel that Infinity speakers are one of the best ways you can go. I liked them more than my Polks and they have typically lasted longer, either powered by the deck or an amp. My buddy had some nice MB Quart components and when he changed cars, he got a pair of Boston Acoustic components. He's powering them off a 4-channel amp using the front channels on the components and the rear channels bridged to power a 10" Infinity Perfect. Amazing sound in his Integra at all volume levels (his $900 Pioneer deck might have something to do with that too )

Adding an amp will always improve sound quality as long as it can competently power the speakers. I say do it. Some custom work will be needed to maximize trunk space/minimize the install, but you sounded like you're willing and capable of that.

I don't know if an 8" sub will give enough bass to fill the cabin of your car because it is larger than a Civic or Integra. I'd suggest a single 10" sub, but use what you have since you already have it. I'm just worried that there won't be as much volume as you might want.

[BMR]

Thanks for the recommendations. Inifinitys were on my list of likely candidates. Back when I was more up on car audio, I liked 'em. But that was a long time ago, and things change. I'll see if I can find the Boston Acoustics too & give them a listen.

My son had an MB Quart component system in his F150. Don't remember which set. I didn't care for the high freq part of their sound; too shrill, too sizzly sounding. But perhaps the crossovers needed some tuning, I dunno.

I didn't mean to say I absolutely wouldn't be willing to cut holes, but if possible I'd rather not. It's hard to say how much longer the ol' girl's gonna last. But I've been saying that for the last 150k miles! So if a component speaker system is the way to go, so be it. After thinking about it some more, I'm less resistant to doing that.

Any idea what can possibly fit?... Yeah, idiotic noob question, I know... I'll just take the door panel off and take some measurements; I suspect the fronts will be far more restrictive than the rears. I sorta remember the fronts have a very restrictive mounting setup, so I'll likely have to remove the whole deal & fab something to mount those.

BTW, the woofer I've got is a Rockford Fosgate Punch 10", model RFZ1412. Reading a few reviews online it looks like they're mediocre. But, on the other hand, I have no intentions of entering any decibel contests. I'm looking more for clean bass than fender-buzzing volume. For the sub amp, I'd probably go with a 2 channel that's bridge-able.

[ariel_86]

I did my stereo ...4?... years ago, I think it was. I have 6.5" Polk components up front and 6x9" Polk 3 ways in the back run off a MTX 4 channel amp and Pioneer head unit. I did have subs, but I blew my Eclipse subs and haven't had the time or money to find anything to replace them with.

Iirc, the biggest work for the front was cutting holes for the tweeters (I put those near the top of the door), and running extra wires from the crossovers under the dash to the woofer & tweeter in the doors. I might have made a simple mdf mounting bracket for the woofer, but I can't recall. For the rear 6x9" I made a simple mdf mounting bracket and they fit well. The mounting brackets were just 1/4" mdf that I cut to the shape of the speaker and the mounting location of the car, so I could drill screws to mount them properly without much issue, make sense? I didn't need extra depth nor did I run into the speakers being so high that they hit the OEM grills.

I also suggest looking into getting some sound deadener, like Dynamat, or one of the less expensive but still quality imitations. Adding that all around the car, especially around the speaker mounts, will do wonders for sound quality.

That Rockford will probably do what you want/need it to. A well built custom box will sound better, so look into that if you can. I still suggest an amp for the front components. Maybe get a nice 4-channel, power the components off 2 of the amp's channels, bridge the rear channels for the sub, and run the rear speakers off the deck. The rear speakers aren't giving you as much sound as the fronts anyway, so they should be fine without an amp.

Good luck with it!

[SexieWASD]

Well the thing that I've found with our cars is that the trunk eats bass. Your going to need a lot of power if you want to go sealed in the trunk and still have space to use the trunk to put things in, There is no way around that if you don't want to add extra holes. I say that because you could get a nice pair of 6.5" mid basses up front, but then you will miss a good chunk of the midrange, and would need to cut some new holes for a set of 4" mid ranges next to them to fill the gap. If you get nice 6.5" mid ranges you will still be missing the low end without sending 1000w rms to the trunk. If you get some 6x9" mid basses in the back they will mess up the staging if you cross them high enough to fill in the missing low end. My solution was to put 10's in a low tuned (35hz) ported box up through the rear deck with a low pass crossover set around 60hz. (Our cars have dips in cabin gain at 25hz and another big one at 40 hz.) Then use a three way setup up front, but that is way over your budget.

So what I am really saying is that your screwed. If I were you I would get a nice set of mid basses and tweeters, then go to the junk yard and pick up a set of panels (maybe sail panels too if that is where the tweets sound best to you.), then get a cheaper set of 4" mid ranges, and pick up a used 4 channel amp to run the mids and mid basses, and run the tweets off the head unit with a passive crossover on them. Just forget about the sub, you might miss it, I know that I would, but to make it work and sound good you would need either a lot of power, or to give up one of your back seats (or cut a big hole in the rear deck and do some glassing.) I want you to know when I say you need a lot of power for the sub, I am still thinking about a pure sound quality setup, no kidding our trunks just hate bass. I tried it, and I tried it again with an entirely sealed and deadened trunk with no rear speakers, it just doesn't work well if your obsessed with sound quality like I am.

[4Cyl'erThriller]

Originally Posted by SexieWASD

I want you to know when I say you need a lot of power for the sub, I am still thinking about a pure sound quality setup, no kidding our trunks just hate bass. I tried it, and I tried it again with an entirely sealed and deadened trunk with no rear speakers, it just doesn't work well if your obsessed with sound quality like I am.

I feel you on that. Tried it with 2 12" FI Audio Q's Sounded good, but it was too much weight. Tried it again with one Q in a sealed box. . Its sickening. Im all about the sound quality. I even used some of that bed liner stuff in the trunk to help with the sound deadening. Worked great too. I am doing a custom fiberglass box when I get some time.
I personally went with a set of 6.5" PPI components up front. I left the tweeters attached to the speaker itself. The set I have allows for the tweeters to be mounted elsewhere if you want. I didnt feel like messing with it. I previously had a set of kicker 6.5'' up front and the difference with the component set is night and day.
A nice component set will set you back around $150 on the low side for what I would consider a decent pair. Then the price goes up from there. In the end you get what you pay for most of the time. Id spend the money and get something nice you wont regret it. My advice do some research. Make sure your speakers and amp are compatible. Like dont put a 100w amp on two 75w rms speakers. Matching your different components to work together helps get the most from what you've got.

[LynchburgCSI]

^ You could just modify the rear speaker deck like Adam did put the sub there. Problems solved. Both trunk space and sound, I mean.

[projektvertx]

Originally Posted by LynchburgCSI

^ You could just modify the rear speaker deck like Adam did put the sub there. Problems solved. Both trunk space and sound, I mean.

That is the best way to go, but you make it sound like it's a walk in the park Ken There is a reason why Adam told me to wait until it's warm out

[ariel_86]

Originally Posted by LynchburgCSI

^ You could just modify the rear speaker deck like Adam did put the sub there. Problems solved. Both trunk space and sound, I mean.

Pics, links?

[LynchburgCSI]

^ Hey. No easier thank making your own custom box.

edit: --> http://www.cardomain.com/ride/228043...edan-4d/page-2

[projektvertx]

Originally Posted by LynchburgCSI

^ Hey. No easier thank making your own custom box.

edit: --> http://www.cardomain.com/ride/228043...edan-4d/page-2

Point taken I'm going on a tangeant here, but I find it funny that after all of the things I've done as far as suspension goes, I call using a dremel tool to make an 8 inch hole challenging

[BMR]

Originally Posted by LynchburgCSI

^ You could just modify the rear speaker deck like Adam did put the sub there. Problems solved. Both trunk space and sound, I mean.

More info please. Did he simply cut a hole in the deck and mount the sub there? ...Never mind, I see you posted a link while I was typing all this.

I'm gleaning lots of good ideas from everyone; thanks! Re-reading my initial post, I see I wasn't very clear on my expectations. I totally understand that $500-ish isn't gonna get a top notch, kick ass sound. But I was thinking it should get a speaker set that would be a sizeable improvement over the aging stockers. The addition of a sub/amp was a bit of an afterthought; seeing's how I've already got the woofer, it might be a cost effective way to boost the performance.

I like ariel_86's idea of adding a 4 channel amp, using 2 to drive the front, bridging 2 to drive a sub, and using the HU's amp to drive the rears. Gonna look into the cost aspect of that. My concern is that if I try to spread the $ too thin, I'd be worse off than going with a simpler setup with higher quality components. That might lead me to ditch the thought of putting in a sub.

SexieWASD & 4Cyl'erThriller have convinced me that putting my R.F. sub in the trunk is a bad idea. I suspected putting it in a felt-lined steel box (the trunk) was a bad idea. I'd probably get the muddy muffled bass quality that I hate. So now I'm thinking I might make an enclosure that would rest on the floor's center hump in back, between the seats. 99% of the time no one's back there. I'd make it easy to remove on the rare occasion I need the space for passengers. Thoughts?

4Cyl-er - thx for mentioning the PPIs. I hadn't heard of them, but will look at 'em.

I've looked online a bit for some guidance building the subwoofer enclosure; I know there are some engineering principles involved regarding the internal air volume Vs woofer size. Maybe more. But so far I haven't found much help. Mostly online calculators to figure the internal volume given the enclosure's dimensions. Dah!... I think I can handle that! So if anyone can point me to a website to help me there, I'd appreciate it.

BTW, I ran across these adaptors on eBay for 6x9's in the rear, if I go that way. I think someone on this board posted about 'em; don't remember who. Ooo... same seller has these for putting 6 1/2's in the front. He's got lots of adaptors for other years/makes too!

[LynchburgCSI]

IIRC, you don't need adapters for the front because the stock speakers are already on those adapters!

[BMR]

I thought the front speakers were 5 1/4"? Oh, wait. You're saying the existing mounts are the same as those adaptors, and that they'll take 6 1/2" speakers?

[4Cyl'erThriller]

Originally Posted by BMR

4Cyl-er - thx for mentioning the PPIs. I hadn't heard of them, but will look at 'em.

I've looked online a bit for some guidance building the subwoofer enclosure; I know there are some engineering principles involved regarding the internal air volume Vs woofer size. Maybe more. But so far I haven't found much help. Mostly online calculators to figure the internal volume given the enclosure's dimensions. Dah!... I think I can handle that! So if anyone can point me to a website to help me there, I'd appreciate it.

BTW, I ran across these adaptors on eBay for 6x9's in the rear, if I go that way. I think someone on this board posted about 'em; don't remember who. Ooo... same seller has these for putting 6 1/2's in the front. He's got lots of adaptors for other years/makes too!

The thing about subs is they perform differently in different environments. AKA CU FT air space. My subs specs look like this:
(I have Dual 2 so I would use the figure in green on each set)
FI Q12

DUAL 1 | DUAL 2 Fs: 34.2 Hz | 33.9 Hz Re: 0.7 Ohms/coil | 1.4 Ohms/coil Qms: 7.63 | 7.69 Qes: .39 | .39 Qts: .37 | .37 Mms: 249g | 253g Cms: 0.87mm/N | 0.87mm/N Sd: 481cm^2 | 481cm^2 Vas: 28.3 l | 28.3 l Spl: 86.5dB 1W/1m | 86.3dB 1W/1m Bl: 13.9 N/A | 19.65 N/A Xmax: 28mm Rms: 1000W Sealed box: .8-1.5 High QTScuft Ported box: 1.8-2.5 cuft @ 28-33Hz Sub OD: 12.500” Cut ID: 11.125” Mounting depth: 7.000” Displacement: 0.16cuft

Notice the red & orange highlighted areas. These are some of the things you want to take into consideration when pairing subs with amps and boxes. All three are important to really get the most out of what you have.
I have a sealed box @ 1.3cu ft, which after the sub displacement, leaves me close to an optimal 1.2 cu ft air space for my sub. I am running an amp that puts out just over 1000w. This is just what the sub is built for.
The same mode of thinking can be translated to your speakers and a 4 channel amplifier. I personally put a nice set of speakers up front and a run a average set in the back. Most of what you will hear will be from the front anyhow. You want to pair your 4 channel amp's watts with the rms for the sum of your 4 speakers.
I used some Kenwood 6x9s in the rear but I prefer the sound from a round speaker personally. If I cared that much about the rear seat passengers Id put a nice 6.5" set in place of the 6x9s in the rear like you talked about.
As far as Adams sub on the rear deck. Hes got a 10" if I remember correctly, which is honestly probably plenty of bass especially considering its inside the cabin. I even saw some 6" woofers today I thought would work if you put a couple in the rear. Hopefully you have the info you need to get what you want out of whatever you're working with.
I dont know if this will help. Heres a bit of info from the FI audio website: http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/f...es-cut-sheets/ Maybe you can translate it to what you are doing. You may also be able to navigate their site via the home key and find other useful info.
Good Luck. Keep us posted...