1999 Camry 4cyl 2.2 - thought timing belt was broken...

[Headless]

So i went ahead and took the plunge after talking with you guys in this thread:
My Timing belt change (very detailed, pics) Gen 4

Today I removed the timing belt covers and the timing belt isn't broken! I am baffled; I had the car taken into a mechanic who said that the timing belt was broken. The car died while driving ~30mph @ 1500rpm...no weird noise, engine just stopped running mid-stride. When cranking the car, i could hear something spinning up to pretty high RPM's but the engine wouldn't catch and run. Any ideas from you guys on what might be the problem would be great. I'm tempted to go ahead and replace the timing belt and all gaskets/seals around the area while i'm in here anyway, since it's past time...but now I don't know what the heck is actually wrong with the car. Any troubleshooting tips would be useful. The car has been leaking some oil and the oil level was low then drained from the car; what should I look at for possible damage due to low oil?

Thanks again

[csaxon]

Did the belt have all of its teeth? It may have slipped and screwed up the timing.
Any check engine light codes checked?

[Mister_Perkins]

If your belt didn't break its probably like the above poster said and it stretched so far it skipped teeth. You could put the motor at TDC on the crank pulley and see if the Cam pulley lines up. That will let you know immediately if this happened

[fenixus]

check if you have spark.
make sure there is unrestricted fuel and air delivery.

it could have been your fuel pump going bye bye.

[HotrodLSV8]

Does the timing belt feel loose?
Have a friend turn the key to crank the engine while you watch for the belt to spin.
Have you checked to see if you have spark and fuel?

[dave1811]

Like Mr. Perkins and a couple of other posters said, check your timing belt alignment to make sure no belt slippage. When I changed one of my 99's about a month ago, one of the teeth was broken on the belt. Since you have the covers off, simply pull the spark plugs to allow you turn the crank pulley easier and make sure your crank and camshaft timing marks are lined up. That will at least answer that question.

Good luck,

[Headless]

Hey guys - thanks for the responses. I turned the engine over slowly by hand and can see that the belt doesn't rotate when the crankshaft is turned. I had never considered that the belt could feel tight, not be fully broken, but that the belt's teeth just where the belt is currently wrapped around the the crank pulley itself could be shredded to the point they get no traction on the pulley anymore. I noticed if i rotated the crank pulley backwards, the belt actually did rotate...so I expect the teeth are simply worn away to the point that standard rotation direction just slides over them without gripping.

Question #1: I hope I didn't hurt anything by turning the crankshaft 'backwards' a couple of degrees; the timing is already very off due to the broken belt. Did I screw up, or will it survive being rotated backwards for 5 degrees or so? Guess it's a bit late to ask now.

I had actually noticed a hesitation when applying gas from a full stop (worse when the engine was cold) for the past 2 months - I wonder if that could have actually been caused by timing being off due to the timing belt slipping slightly as those teeth wore out?? It would be nice if this work solved another problem I haven't been able to diagnose.
I'm having problems with getting the 19mm crankshaft bolt off, so will be able to doublecheck the teeth on the belt at the crank pulley when my pulley holder tool arrives.

I was going to try taking the flywheel cover off of the transmission area and jamming a screwdriver in there, but one of the bolts is seriously frozen and i'm worried i'll round it off or break it off entirely, so figured it would be worth the 30$ for a pulley holder. I've got the harmonic puller ready to rock once I get the 19mm off.

I went ahead and ordered a 1/2" socket set and a 17" long 1/2" drive ratchet w/ flex head. Funny, I thought i'd be 'good to go' when I bought my 3/8 set since i then had 1/4 and 3/8....but a LOT of the bolts I've needed to remove this job have needed more leverage than my short 3/8 ratchet really provides, and trying to get my hands between the shock tower and the engine is a PITA with a short ratchet. I'm starting to see the benefit of super super long handled wrenches/ratchets all of the sudden...

Thanks again for the responses. What was going to be 'replace timing belt' has turned into 'replace timing belt, camshaft seal, crankshaft seal, oil pump seal and oil pump o ring, idler pulleys, water pump, pcv valve, valve cover gasket, flush transmission + replace transmission filter'...funny how jobs multiply when you've been putting off working on your car for a while

Question #2: is it OK/safe to leave the engine with (a) no oil and (b) no transmission fluid for about a week? The problem is that I got stuck at the 'remove the crankshaft bolt step', but had already drained oil from engine and transmission fluid from tranny in anticipation of getting at the flywheel. If it's a bad thing(tm) to leave them empty till next weekend, then i'll bite the bullet and refill them both, then go buy more fluids.

On second thoughts, i'm thinking I should have just taken off the starter and jammed something into the flywheel from that direction;
Question #3: If I removed the starter, would that have meant I wouldn't need to drain the transmission to jam the flywheel from that direction?
The haynes manual refers to jamming the flywheel through the flywheel cover that is on the side of the transmission under the engine between the transmission pan and the oil pan, and it looks like that requires draining the trans fluid.

Question #4: To find TDC, do I need a compression gauge? Or can I use a thin dowel rod slide into cylinder 1, then just turn the engine until the dowel rod reaches the height of it's travel, and assume that is TDC for that cylinder?

I have a rather low understanding of the nitty gritty on how the engine functions, but I seem to remember something about there being an 'exhaust' stroke vs. 'compression stroke', and seem to remember reading something about TDC being specific to the 'compression stroke'. If that's true, I'll buy a compression gauge to find TDC. Since my timing belt broke, I don't get to use any of those fun tricks involving marking previous belt and sprockets with white paint

Thanks again for taking the time to read and respond to my admittedly foolish questions. I have been doing a LOT of searches and reading and have learned a great deal here. I do apologize if many of my questions are rehashes of the 'same thing everyone else asked'.

Just an FYI, my 99 camry's timing belt lasted 178,000 miles. So did it's original water pump. Seals are leaking oil, but the engine itself seems to be OK otherwise. I am impressed by toyota's components and bought AISIN parts again. If this change lasts me until 360,000 miles, i'll be overjoyed

[HotrodLSV8]

Teeth on the timing belt are chewed off. The crank sprocket is high carbon steel. Steel isn't going to fall apart before the rubber teeth on a belt will. New belt and re-time and you'll be good to go. Check out the timing belt threads in the Camry FAQ sticky at the top of the page. Lots of good info there about the procedure and what else to replace while you have the cover off and have easy access.

[Headless]

Thanks Hotrod - I did read some threads about this - that's how I came up with my current list of things that I am replacing:

pcv valve
pcv gromet
valve cover gasket
timing belt
both idle pulleys
timing belt tensioner spring
timing cover gaskets
camshaft seal
crankshaft seal
oil pump seal
oil pump O ring (ufo ring)
water pump (and all gaskets)
thermostat (and gasket)
transmission filter

I've removed the valve cover and replaced it's gasket. The old pcv valve snapped in half, and the hose was totally destroyed during removal; i'll be picking up replacement hose for that today.

I had massive oil leaks from the seals inside the timing cover...i'm degreasing the entire area and have already replaced the camshaft seal. As soon as I get the 19mm crankshaft bolt off, i'm going to get to work on the rest of the job. I received my 17.5" 1/2" ratchet and socket set yesterday so am ready to rock.

I ordered this pulley holder tool, and also received it yesterday:
http://www.tooltopia.com/otc-tools-4754.aspx
Unfortunately, the smallest set of pins does not fit the holes on the crankshaft pulley. Arrgh.

After some research, I discovered that this tool will fit instead:
http://www.tooltopia.com/otc-tools-6613.aspx
It is being delivered today.

I also picked up a lisle seal puller. Damn, that thing is awesome. I had a lot of trouble pulling the camshaft seal with the haynes manual's directions of 'use a screwdriver covered in tape' :/

Anyone able to answer my other questions?
Question #1: I hope I didn't hurt anything by turning the crankshaft 'backwards' a couple of degrees; the timing is already very off due to the broken belt. Did I screw up, or will it survive being rotated backwards for 5 degrees or so? Guess it's a bit late to ask now.


Question #2: is it OK/safe to leave the engine with (a) no oil and (b) no transmission fluid for about a week? The problem is that I got stuck at the 'remove the crankshaft bolt step', but had already drained oil from engine and transmission fluid from tranny in anticipation of getting at the flywheel. If it's a bad thing(tm) to leave them empty till next weekend, then i'll bite the bullet and refill them both, then go buy more fluids.


Question #3: If I removed the starter, would that have meant I wouldn't need to drain the transmission to jam the flywheel from that direction?
The haynes manual refers to jamming the flywheel through the flywheel cover that is on the side of the transmission under the engine between the transmission pan and the oil pan, and it looks like that requires draining the trans fluid.

I went ahead and bought a compression gauge so I can check TDC easily.

[fenixus]

Originally Posted by Headless

I ordered this pulley holder tool, and also received it yetserday:
http://www.tooltopia.com/otc-tools-4754.aspx
Unfortunately, the smallest set of pins does not fit the holes on the crankshaft pulley. Arrgh.

just go to local Home Depot or so and get a pair or two of M6x1.00 bolts, around 50mm long with some M6 nuts and washers (take largest ones, like 3/4'' wide) and good to go with that tool

[JohnGD]

Originally Posted by Headless

Question #1: I hope I didn't hurt anything by turning the crankshaft 'backwards' a couple of degrees; the timing is already very off due to the broken belt. Did I screw up, or will it survive being rotated backwards for 5 degrees or so? Guess it's a bit late to ask now.

Nobody ever mentioned the reason why not to turn it backwards. I guess it has to do with the belt/chain/oil pump. But a few degrees shouldn't hurt.

Originally Posted by Headless

I had actually noticed a hesitation when applying gas from a full stop (worse when the engine was cold) for the past 2 months - I wonder if that could have actually been caused by timing being off due to the timing belt slipping slightly as those teeth wore out?? It would be nice if this work solved another problem I haven't been able to diagnose.

Yes. An off-tooth belt can do that too. Basically the cam isn't turning with the crank like it should.

Originally Posted by Headless

Question #2: is it OK/safe to leave the engine with (a) no oil and (b) no transmission fluid for about a week? The problem is that I got stuck at the 'remove the crankshaft bolt step', but had already drained oil from engine and transmission fluid from tranny in anticipation of getting at the flywheel. If it's a bad thing(tm) to leave them empty till next weekend, then i'll bite the bullet and refill them both, then go buy more fluids.

On second thoughts, i'm thinking I should have just taken off the starter and jammed something into the flywheel from that direction;

Starter is easier to get to from the top side. But since you have a pulley holder just use it.

You don't need to drain the oil/ATF to do this. It's not much more than parking your car for a couple of weeks. Oil/ATF will drain back after extended parking but you can fill them back in now.

Even if you remove the axles it's only the differential that needs to be drained first to avoid a mess.

Originally Posted by Headless

Question #3: If I removed the starter, would that have meant I wouldn't need to drain the transmission to jam the flywheel from that direction?
The haynes manual refers to jamming the flywheel through the flywheel cover that is on the side of the transmission under the engine between the transmission pan and the oil pan, and it looks like that requires draining the trans fluid.

You don't need to drain oil/ATF to do the timing job. If you remove axles just drain the differential first, and that's only to avoid a mess.

Originally Posted by Headless

Question #4: To find TDC, do I need a compression gauge? Or can I use a thin dowel rod slide into cylinder 1, then just turn the engine until the dowel rod reaches the height of it's travel, and assume that is TDC for that cylinder?

No. use the marks on on the pulleys and backing plate/pump body. As long as the marks line up you will be at #1 TDC compression. I know Haynes has that compression gauge suggestion forever. That's not applicable any more.

Originally Posted by Headless

Thanks again for taking the time to read and respond to my admittedly foolish questions. I have been doing a LOT of searches and reading and have learned a great deal here. I do apologize if many of my questions are rehashes of the 'same thing everyone else asked'.

Just an FYI, my 99 camry's timing belt lasted 178,000 miles. So did it's original water pump. Seals are leaking oil, but the engine itself seems to be OK otherwise. I am impressed by toyota's components and bought AISIN parts again. If this change lasts me until 360,000 miles, i'll be overjoyed

There are many helpful members here willing to help so keep asking. The timing interval spec is 6-years and if you drive 15K miles a year that's 90K miles. But if you can do your own work I'd prefer 5-years/60K miles. These engines do not have an automatic tensioner and the belt will stretch a little and retard the timing. So a new timing job will restore the pep and the new parts should run quieter and smoother.

At this many miles you might want to consider doing the valve stem seals and check the valve clearances too. These are more involved and require special tools.

For example:
http://www.lextreme.com/valve_seals.html

[Headless]

Thanks for the response john! It's too bad, I already bought a pressure gauge :/ I think it may be useful for diagnosing other problems though (this car has code P0401 egr flow).

I used the pulley holder tool today - the OTC6613. The other one would just not work - 6mm bolts long enough to attach to it just bent horribly before enough torque was placed on the bolt to remove it.

However, after removing the crank pulley, I noticed there are 4 holes (2 pairs) on the crank pulley that the pulley holder actually would attach to - without extremely long 6mm threaded bolts.
The holes are on the totally opposite side of the pulley from where you would use the 6mm threaded bolt holes.
These pulley holder holes on the pulley were 5mm.

I was surprised to find these - none of the many threads on this I have read mentioned these holes. All other posts i've seen reference using the 6mm holes in the pulley to hold it steady w/ a pulley holder...am I missing something? these other holes worked way better.

It made the tool fit easily, with enough clearance to attach it to the inside rim of the pulley from the bottom-front of the engine. The pins are only ~5-8mm long and 5mm wide, but that's all it needed since it could snug right up to the pulley.The case for the OTC 6613 actually says 'toyota cam tool' on it. It was extremely easy to use and attached to a 1/2 breaker bar. Taking off the 19mm bolt was actually the easiest part of the job once I got that pulley holder attached. Since the holes are on the opposite side of the pulley from the 19mm and the threaded m6 bolt holes, there is no clearance issue between the pulley holder and the ratchet/breaker bar you are using to remove the 19mm bolt. Awesome.

Replaced the water pump and all of it's associated gaskets, thermostat + gasket, pcv valve + gromit, crankshaft seal, camshaft seal, oil pump seal and oil pump o-ring, both idler bearings, timing belt tensioner spring, top and bottom timing cover gaskets, and the valve cover gasket. Also flushed and refilled the transmission and replaced the transmission filter/cleaned the transmission pan.

Degreased the entire area around the timing belt on the engine...it was horribly sludged with nasty oil from the extensive leaking that had happened. It was so bad that I couldn't find some of the bolts, until i degreased and rinsed several times - they were simply covered under a mound of nasty oil and dirt. The lower crank position sensor bracket was totally indistinguishable until i cleaned the crap out of the area. The oil pump o ring was brittle as hell and fell to pieces when i removed the oil pump.

The car cranked up and ran fine first try I am happy. Haven't get hooked up the alternator - ran out of light - but tommorrow i'm going to finish hooking that and the motor mount up and it'll be roadworthy again

Thanks so much for the responses.

[JohnGD]

[dave1811]

Sounds like you did a great job and saved a ton of money doing it yourself. The alternator hookup is easy. A clean engine is a happy engine!

Dave

[Headless]

got the car off the jackstands and drove it today Used a belt tensioner on the drive belts when re-assembling. All went easily. Car sounds quieter than it has in a LONG time...I suspect the belt had gotten loose and was rattling against something behind the cover (or into the cover itself).

Thanks again everyone. Anyone know what's up with these holes on the outside rim of the crankshaft pulley on the opposite side from where the 19mm bolt is attached? None of the DIY's mention them and it made dealing with the crankshaft pulley really easy since the pulley holder tool doesn't interfere with the breaker bar/ratchet on the 19mm since it's attached on the opposite side of the pulley, and to the edge rather than across the center of the pulley Maybe I should take a pic.